Running-Wizard

how's it going? (Read 103 times)

JML


     

    Isn't turning south an inevitability in CP?

     

    Wow, that was a bad joke, even for me.

     

    If you're doing fast 800s, I bet you'll be fine in your flats. Just remember to relax your ankles and be gentle. (Disclaimer: of course my bias is towards the more minimal shoe...)

     

    Somebody I know described the course for this race as 'flat and fast'.   Ha.  It includes Cat hill and the rolling west side.  That doesn't seem very flat to me.

     

    The racing flats feel remarkably good to run in as long as I keep good form.  I have been slowly moving to less shoe over time and I suspect that I need to get there sooner to keep this injury at bay.  When running at faster speeds I feel smooth in flats and kind of clunky in my neutral trainers.   I plan to use this race to see if my theory about shoes is correct..  The forecast is now calling for 26 degrees and snow.  Sounds like a nice day for a run.

     2014 goals: run a bunch....race some.....repeat...

      I'm ready to take another crack at that stupid marathon distance. Next one is the local North Olympic Discovery on June 1.

       

      I've been running regularly but not hard or far (except for the Turkey 10K I ran a couple of weeks ago in 37:59. A PR, thanks to the residual effects of RW training no doubt!), and have gotten back on the squats/planks/pushups/lunges/awkward-motions-that-if-you-squint-looks-like-stretching routine. Feeling rested and pretty decent overall.

       

      I also just read McMillan's book, You Only Faster. VERY similar concepts to Running Wizard, but gave me some ideas for customization. One of the concepts of his training is adjusting the plan according to the type of runner you are - Speedster or Endurance Monster. Looking at my past struggles and successes, it became pretty apparent to me I fall in the Speedster category.

       

      Here are the adjustments I think I'm going to make to the 24 week RW plan:

       

      BASE (12 weeks, three of them step-back weeks)

      Long runs count as a hard day for me, so easy jog days before and after.

      Two out of three long runs will be fast-finish.

      The out-n-back gets moved to the middle of the week, with a couple of extra miles tacked on.

      Fartleks to be VERY easy, run only occasionally.

       

      HILLS (6 weeks, one of them an easy step-back week)

      Long run in hills, progressively pushing the ups and downs.

      One (instead of two) hill-bounding day.

      PCR in hills.

      No fartlek.

       

      ANAEROBIC (2 weeks)

      This stays pretty much the same, just a shorter duration.

       

      COORDINATION (2 weeks)

      Same.

       

      Taper (2 weeks)

      Same.

       

      NOTES FROM THE LAST TIME

      Not enough base, too much sharpening. During the anaerobic and coordination phases, I was very fast and recovered easily from the intervals, but was slower and struggled on the PCRs.

      I can do a lot of miles in a week, but still struggle with a lot of miles at a time.

       

      GOALS

      To feel strong, in control, and positive for the duration. Negative split. Time will be whatever.

       

      Thoughts? Should I post this in it's own thread?


      Hungry

         

        I also just read McMillan's book, You Only Faster. VERY similar concepts to Running Wizard, but gave me some ideas for customization. One of the concepts of his training is adjusting the plan according to the type of runner you are - Speedster or Endurance Monster. Looking at my past struggles and successes, it became pretty apparent to me I fall in the Speedster category.

         

        Man, this is exactly what I was thinking when I read the book (about you being a Speedster, not me). And I kind of figured that Northernman was more of an Endurance Monster based on some of his comments and results during the Anaerobic/Intervals Phase. And that the RW plan would probably need to be adjusted a bit differently for each of you. I think I'm pretty much squarely in the middle of the Speedster vs Endurance Monster range, but I still found the concept very interesting.

        I haven't looked at your modifications in detail yet, but I'm very curious how it will work out. The idea of customizing this way makes sense to me.

          Man, this is exactly what I was thinking when I read the book (about you being a Speedster, not me). And I kind of figured that Northernman was more of an Endurance Monster based on some of his comments and results during the Anaerobic/Intervals Phase. And that the RW plan would probably need to be adjusted a bit differently for each of you. I think I'm pretty much squarely in the middle of the Speedster vs Endurance Monster range, but I still found the concept very interesting.

          I haven't looked at your modifications in detail yet, but I'm very curious how it will work out. The idea of customizing this way makes sense to me.

           

          If strangers (just assuming you are strange) on the internet are reading that book and saying, "hey, that sounds like Josh's problem!" there might be something to it...

             

            Somebody I know described the course for this race as 'flat and fast'.   Ha.  It includes Cat hill and the rolling west side.  That doesn't seem very flat to me.

             

            The racing flats feel remarkably good to run in as long as I keep good form.  I have been slowly moving to less shoe over time and I suspect that I need to get there sooner to keep this injury at bay.  When running at faster speeds I feel smooth in flats and kind of clunky in my neutral trainers.   I plan to use this race to see if my theory about shoes is correct..  The forecast is now calling for 26 degrees and snow.  Sounds like a nice day for a run.

             

            CP is flat, if you ignore all the hills.

            Re shoes, it's all about incentives. If you start to run clunky due to fatigue/whatever, you can add cushioning to make it hurt less. Or you can take the cushioning away to make the clunky hurt more. My guess is the pain of clunky exists for a reason. You can either ignore it with cushioning, or learn how to not run clunky without cushioning.

            Given the plummeting sales of minimalist shoes and the Hoka-ification of the latest trends, the market says I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time!


            Hungry

               

              If strangers (just assuming you are strange) on the internet are reading that book and saying, "hey, that sounds like Josh's problem!" there might be something to it...

              Ha! Well, assume no further. But I seriously want to understand this stuff, so when I see that others using this plan aren't having great results, I really want to know why. McMillan's book provided a reasonable explanation that is consistent with the Lydiard stuff. (By the way, McMillan has a nice tribute to Nobby in the book. I thought that was pretty cool.)

              BTW, I wouldn't consider being a speedster a "problem."

                Ha! Well, assume no further. But I seriously want to understand this stuff, so when I see that others using this plan aren't having great results, I really want to know why. McMillan's book provided a reasonable explanation that is consistent with the Lydiard stuff. (By the way, McMillan has a nice tribute to Nobby in the book. I thought that was pretty cool.)

                BTW, I wouldn't consider being a speedster a "problem."

                 

                Well, the "problem" being the difficulty with marathons. And I wouldn't say I didn't have great results with RW - I ran over 1000 miles in three months, felt good, and the "bad" marathon was still the second fastest one I've ever run.


                Hungry

                  I am sticking with RW, too. I am in week 6 of a 24-week marathon plan (7 days per week, forced streaking). I like the idea of mixing in a few of McMillan's Finish Fast Long Runs during the program, maybe during the Anaerobic Phase.

                   

                  Ok, so here is a cool number: 2,620 miles. That's the distance of 100 marathons. If I am able to stick to my current plan, I'll hit 2,620 miles for 2013 around December 29th. A nice short-term goal to keep me going through the holidays. I know, it's dumb, but I'm kinda psyched about it.

                    I am sticking with RW, too. I am in week 6 of a 24-week marathon plan (7 days per week, forced streaking). I like the idea of mixing in a few of McMillan's Finish Fast Long Runs during the program, maybe during the Anaerobic Phase.

                     

                    Ok, so here is a cool number: 2,620 miles. That's the distance of 100 marathons. If I am able to stick to my current plan, I'll hit 2,620 miles for 2013 around December 29th. A nice short-term goal to keep me going through the holidays. I know, it's dumb, but I'm kinda psyched about it.

                     

                    Now I'm really curious about the McMillan book. I have too many books stacked up here (and electronically stacked on my Kindle) but what the heck...

                     

                    And SubDood, that is a very cool mileage total! Awesome!

                     

                    I had set a goal for myself last January of running 2000km this year. I hit that back in October. Currently mulling over whether to set a similar goal next year.

                    JML


                       

                      CP is flat, if you ignore all the hills.

                      Re shoes, it's all about incentives. If you start to run clunky due to fatigue/whatever, you can add cushioning to make it hurt less. Or you can take the cushioning away to make the clunky hurt more. My guess is the pain of clunky exists for a reason. You can either ignore it with cushioning, or learn how to not run clunky without cushioning.

                      Given the plummeting sales of minimalist shoes and the Hoka-ification of the latest trends, the market says I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time!

                      Other than the snow, slippery conditions and locusts (OK...I made that last one up), it was not a bad day.  Ran the 15k race as a progression (8:15 first mile, sub 6 minute pace at the end, 7:29 overall) in my racing flats with good results and more importantly….no pain. Things that I learned:
                      - I can race longer distances in less shoe than I have in the past. Running at faster paces in a lighter shoe just feels better for me.   There was NO degradation in form in the later miles and my foot (and feet) feel fine several hours later.
                      - Racing in the cold (25 degrees) and snow is a bracing experience. I didn’t feel warmed up until about mile 5.
                      - The Gatorade that I drank after the race in slush form was not the taste sensation that I hoped it would be
                      - It is time to start thinking about a spring race as the foot is well on the way to recovery

                       

                      Josh - your musings on tweaking the RW approach to suit your particular strengths / weaknesses are not a bad idea.   I had both a speed demon and an endurance monster in the group that I coached for NYC this fall.   While I did not use RW specifically, the Lydiard approach that I did give to them had all the elements of a RW plan, but was adjusted to suit their needs.

                       

                      Speed demon - Ran everything too fast.  When he started training, his running consisted of going out for 5 miles a few times each week at a 7 minute pace where he was completely spent at the end.  I ran with him a few times to try to teach him to slow down and ultimately had the message sink in during a practice half marathon that we ran together 4 weeks before NYC.  His training was biased towards lots of endurance work as he already had many of the other attributes for speed.  On race day, he heeded my warning and went out slow and closed with a six minute negative split in the second half.  Perhaps he heeded my warning a bit too well.

                       

                      Endurance Monster - already a fast guy (3:12 marathon run solely on a plan of just going out and running).  He had one of the best developed aerobic systems that I have ever seen.  He could run easy runs at a 7:30 pace all day long, but struggled to get much faster.  His plan was more biased towards anaerobic conditioning and we really played around with the workouts during coordination to get him ready.  He ended up taking 15 minutes off his PR and going sub 3 hours.

                       

                      I think that what applies here is a macro version of Lydiard's 'response regulated training'.   While RW has you making pace / duration adjustments during the course of a training plan based on how things are going, adjusting some of the overall structure of the plan to suit your abilities and areas that need improvement is simply a bigger picture version of this concept.

                       

                      Disclaimer for anyone else reading this that is a first time marathoner or a newer runner who is embarking on their first RW plan:  I highly encourage you to stay on plan without big adjustments until you have been through it a couple of times and know how you respond to this style of training.  I would hate for a first time RW user to read this and dramatically alter the structure of the plan other than varying pace / duration within the recommended parameters.  The RW approach as written is excellent and can really help you improve your running if you let it.    Can it be tweaked to better align with the needs of an individual runner? Sure.....but make sure that you fully understand how this training style works before you start making big changes.

                       2014 goals: run a bunch....race some.....repeat...

                        Disclaimer for anyone else reading this that is a first time marathoner or a newer runner who is embarking on their first RW plan:  I highly encourage you to stay on plan without big adjustments until you have been through it a couple of times and know how you respond to this style of training.  I would hate for a first time RW user to read this and dramatically alter the structure of the plan other than varying pace / duration within the recommended parameters.  The RW approach as written is excellent and can really help you improve your running if you let it.    Can it be tweaked to better align with the needs of an individual runner? Sure.....but make sure that you fully understand how this training style works before you start making big changes.

                         

                        Agreed. I may be erring on the side of over-tweaking, but I figure why not. Rather than being at my total peak, I'd like to know what it's like to feel strong for the final miles of a marathon even if it's not my fastest potential. THEN maybe I'll go for a real gut-buster.

                         

                        Congrats on your happy and healthy race! Glad the foot is holding up.


                        Hungry

                          JML -- Great news about your foot!  And your race -- congrats!

                          runharrietrun -- I recently read that someone had actually run his 100th marathon in Minnesota recently, and a friend of his made a sign that read "2,620 Miles" for him to see during his race. That was what prompted me to check my log and see how it might work into my 2013 plans. Pure chance that I may hit that mark in the last few days of 2013, and I really needed something like this as a near-term goal to keep me energized. "100 Marathons in 2013" may be a bit mis-leading, but I'm running with it.

                           

                          I want to continue the above discussion re: "tweaking" of the RW plans à la McMillan's book. I hope no one minds doing so in this thread.

                          ...  I may be erring on the side of over-tweaking, but I figure why not. Rather than being at my total peak, I'd like to know what it's like to feel strong for the final miles of a marathon even if it's not my fastest potential. THEN maybe I'll go for a real gut-buster.

                           

                          Josh -- At the risk of sticking my nose firmly where it doesn't belong, I wondered about 2 things leading up to your recent marathon. I was too chicken to say anything at the time, but maybe it's relevant to the present "tweaking" discussion.

                          1) Shoes. Any thoughts about wearing something, albeit minimalist, for your next marathon? Merrell Vapors? Even Abebe Bikila, famous for winning the 1960 Olympic Marathon barefoot, wore shoes to win the 1964 Olympic Marathon, and was more than 3 minutes faster with shoes. Just sayin'.  (I love my 13 pairs of minimalist shoes!)

                          2) 2 weeks before your marathon, you ran an awesome Half Marathon. Maybe too awesome -- you WON the freaking race, on a HILLY course, with an average pace of 6:42. (Wearing shoes, if I remember correctly.)  I just wonder if this effort might've taken too much out of you prior to your marathon. This 6:42 pace is about 10 seconds per mile faster than what you needed for your marathon pace to hit sub-3. (Looking back at my own RW plan last summer for comparison, 2 weeks before the marathon, I did a FLAT half-marathon at what ended up being my marathon pace (~7:10), and I wondered if THAT may have been too much effort.)

                          I guess I'm saying all this because maybe you would've hit sub-3 with the plan you had if not for these 2 factors, and over-tweaking a future plan might not necessarily be the thing that gets you where you want to be. [Disclaimer: Take all of this with a huge grain of salt, of course, since I am just a stranger on the internet trying to figure this stuff out.] I'd love to hear your thoughts and anyone else's. Tweaking the RW plan based on your being a Speedster may still be totally appropriate for you. If I understood the McMillan book and my own situation, I may be a "Combo-Speedster," and there may be some minor tweaking in my future, as well.

                           

                          I ran 16.4 miles yesterday OUTSIDE in 5 degrees F with a couple inches of fresh snow. First outdoor (non-treadmill) run in 2 weeks. My eyelids almost froze shut. The snow caused my gait to be more of a bounding-type motion -- I am pretty sore today. Back to the treadmill -- 3 degrees for a high today! Why do I live here???

                            I want to continue the above discussion re: "tweaking" of the RW plans à la McMillan's book. I hope no one minds doing so in this thread.

                            Josh -- At the risk of sticking my nose firmly where it doesn't belong, I wondered about 2 things leading up to your recent marathon. I was too chicken to say anything at the time, but maybe it's relevant to the present "tweaking" discussion.

                            1) Shoes. Any thoughts about wearing something, albeit minimalist, for your next marathon? Merrell Vapors? Even Abebe Bikila, famous for winning the 1960 Olympic Marathon barefoot, wore shoes to win the 1964 Olympic Marathon, and was more than 3 minutes faster with shoes. Just sayin'.  (I love my 13 pairs of minimalist shoes!)

                            2) 2 weeks before your marathon, you ran an awesome Half Marathon. Maybe too awesome -- you WON the freaking race, on a HILLY course, with an average pace of 6:42. (Wearing shoes, if I remember correctly.)  I just wonder if this effort might've taken too much out of you prior to your marathon. This 6:42 pace is about 10 seconds per mile faster than what you needed for your marathon pace to hit sub-3. (Looking back at my own RW plan last summer for comparison, 2 weeks before the marathon, I did a FLAT half-marathon at what ended up being my marathon pace (~7:10), and I wondered if THAT may have been too much effort.)

                            I guess I'm saying all this because maybe you would've hit sub-3 with the plan you had if not for these 2 factors, and over-tweaking a future plan might not necessarily be the thing that gets you where you want to be. [Disclaimer: Take all of this with a huge grain of salt, of course, since I am just a stranger on the internet trying to figure this stuff out.] I'd love to hear your thoughts and anyone else's. Tweaking the RW plan based on your being a Speedster may still be totally appropriate for you. If I understood the McMillan book and my own situation, I may be a "Combo-Speedster," and there may be some minor tweaking in my future, as well.

                             

                            I ran 16.4 miles yesterday OUTSIDE in 5 degrees F with a couple inches of fresh snow. First outdoor (non-treadmill) run in 2 weeks. My eyelids almost froze shut. The snow caused my gait to be more of a bounding-type motion -- I am pretty sore today. Back to the treadmill -- 3 degrees for a high today! Why do I live here???

                             

                            I wouldn't put my business out there if I didn't want people sticking their noses in it.

                             

                            Wait, that didn't come out right...

                             

                            1. I'm not so much of a purist to deny that my barefootery wasn't a factor in the bonk. I swear I don't do it as a stunt - it really is a very comfortable way to run when the roads are smooth, which I thought was going to be the case in Victoria. If I had thought to google "barefoot victoria marathon" I would have found out my notion was mistaken before I ran it. If everything else was perfect, I could have coped with the rough terrain, maybe even landed a sub-3. But probably not, more likely a slower bonk that would have resulted in a 3:09ish or so. The next one, NODM, also has long stretches of nasty stuff. The Merrell Vapors will have the honor of adorning my feet for that.

                             

                            2. I didn't feel like the half zapped me all that much, that I held back enough. Also, I ran a similar half before my one sub-3. However, I trained less for that effort in 2011, so I might have been fresher in general and better able to fully recover.

                             

                            One other factor that I didn't mention because it sounds silly, but I had bad dreams the night before Victoria. Not like scary or anything, more like self-defeatist. I woke up that morning feeling a little depressed and down on myself. So that's something else I'll have to work on, and part of my reasoning for adding a few fast-finish long runs: not so much physical exercise as mental.

                             

                            Lastly, my decision to tweak the plan isn't motivated just by the one race. It's looking back over my running life and addressing the big patterns that seem to stick out. Being a "speedster" isn't just about physiology. Shorter distances don't offer enough time to start finding excuses, compromises, and opportunities to succumb to doubt. I can be a badass for five to twenty minutes or so, but if I want to be a badass for longer I need to address my urges to quit over the long haul.

                             

                            I just ran 14 miles on hilly trails in 45 degree, sunny weather at a fun but not too hard pace. So very happy to be living here! /brag

                              so thinking we should maybe start a 2014 thread for this topic?? we have lots of runners doing Boston this year, and it seems like just about everyone has some sort of running goal for the year for all of us to follow and comment on Smile

                               

                              i finally was able to run outside today after a week of sub-zero temps and rain/ice. but maybe i was optimistic, because i had a pretty good fall on the ice and landed on my left knee. was able to complete the run and enjoyed most of it, but now that i am home my knee is definitely getting stiff and hurts pretty badly. hope it feels better soon because i was hoping to go out tomorrow before another week of treadmill running. hubby is leaving for a trip out of state bright and early monday morning.