Running-Wizard

how's it going? (Read 103 times)

    Christi:

     

    I'm thinking I'd need to respond to your PCR thread somewhere...  I was concerned about you pushing too hard but, well, looking at this, I guess you're doing it right! ;o)

     

    One of big advantages of Lydiard training is that you do bulk of work earlier (all the mileages and hard running) and, when you start preparing for races, the workload becomes less, sharpening work becomes faster but, because there's no volume there, it's easier to run faster without killing yourself...  In the past, it's really not uncommon to see people PR-ing right and left in this final 3-5 weeks period.  I think TeaOlive ran 10k almost 2-minutes faster 2 or 3 weeks before her target marathon.  Of course, you'd have to discipline yourself to make sure you not over-do it.  Your goal race is your goal race; not a small sub-races here and there.  Those races are still considered as "developmental races" and you shouldn't try to push to run even faster.

     

    Many people have some doubt in the earlier part of the program; lots of sluggish miles and even intervals are not that fast...  Very few even look ahead to see what might happen when the workload lessons (taper) and you're free to run fast...  That's where FAITH in training program comes in.  Far too many push too hard earlier in the program, just to see what they can do or if they can still run fast/hard, wasting all the preparation right down the drain.

     

    A couple of points for the Taper Period; you may really feel good and ready to fly--don't take up that temptation to see how fast you can run; especially on the weekend Long Jog--Long Jog is Long Jog; not PCR or O&B.  Keep that a JOG EFFORT.  All you need is maintenance run.  When you run fast, don't kill yourself either; now you have renewed strength and you may have a temptation to see how fast you can run.  Always remember; it's always better to under-do than over-do.  A good example would be; the final Up-Tempo run.  That comes, what, 3 or 4 days before the race???  It could be a mile or 2km...  This is NOT to see how fast you can run.  You may really feel like pushing but don't.  Just run within the prescribed pace.  Your goal is not to kill yourself then; but it's just a tempo run (literally, to get the rhythm); not a race or time trial.  And watch what you eat; your workload lessons; don't over-eat and get fat!! ;o)  Make sure you hydrate in the final week.

     

    Thanks guys! I felt great during the race but I probably pushed a bit to hard because my time trial this morning didn't go nearly as well :/ oh well, I am starting my two weeks of taper phase and I have high hopes for my goal race. Can't believe I am almost done ! Of course, after a two week break I am starting my marathon plan in May!
      Nobby, thanks for the great advice. I really appreciate the warning not to eat to much! Hahahaha this week I put on a pound and was kind of shocked, but it makes sense! I can't believe how quickly I have gone through this plan and I can't wait to start marathon training in May. I am already in so much better shape than I was on my previous attempt. After a summer of another training cycle I can only imagine how much better this experience will be compared to the last one

        I was reading yesterday through the Running Wizard thread on the main forums. I was already confused by the PCR run and now i think not only am I confused, but I haven't been running this fist part of the plan right at all!!

         

        I understand what Nobby was saying about the race effort vs race pace for the PCR run, and I understand why it is important to run this type of run and judge your increasing fitness. BUT...I guess, am I still supposed to run the PCR run at RACE EFFORT?? My last race was an 8K that i ran in sub 35 min, right exactly at a 7:00 mile. My running wizard plan has my goal pace for my 5K at a 6:50 mile. sooooo, yes, run at race effort...but that's hard!! and then to come back the next morning and run a longish run?? anyway....

         

        then for the out and backs I guess that i assumed that the time and distance given were total time running/distance running. so i have been including my warm up and cool down as part of all of my runs. i don't warm up much, it is about 3/4 mile to the start of a neighborhood loop that i use, so i run easy to the start and when i finish i run easy back home. but today I added an extra street to help fill out the length of the actual work out part of the run....hummmmm. i think i have been doing stuff wrong, which makes me nervous that i am where i am actually supposed to be since this is the last week of building and i start strength/hills next week.

         

        i'm concerned too because my mid-week longish run hasn't been very longish. it has been on the short side every week, mostly because of time!!! i just can't get out of bed earlier than four thirty and i don't have quite enough time to squeeze the whole run in. thankfully they always give a distance range, but i am always on the short side of that range and my time therefore is on the short side

         

        should i be concerned moving forward with the plan?? should i cut a week somewhere and do an extra week of building??

        Christi:

         

        This is the one--I was looking for this at the regular threads...

         

        At any rate, O&B and PCR is, in theory, pretty much the same thing; the name "Out & Back" we got it from the concept that you are supposed to run OUT and BACK pretty much in the same time.  In other words, regardless of what the prescribed time may be, if you find yourself struggling in the second half (Back part), you know you're pushing too much and you'll need to find out what's causing it.  So, basically, with your above question specifically, of course it can't be RACE PACE (I don't think anywhere in RW plan there's a RACE PACE workout perhaps except for a marathon--I think one of shorter O&B workouts in the final weeks might be very close to target marathon race pace...); race EFFORT may be...but I don't think even for PCR...

         

        The term PCR was developed by Lorraine (she likes those fancy terms!! ;o)).  If you take a look at a whole plan, you will notice PCR comes during Hill phase and Anaerobic Phase.  You should be doing those guys pretty much in place of O&B...but what would happen (and should happen) is that your PACE naturally comes down very quickly.  So during Conditioning Phase, you may be doing O&B, say, a couple of seconds per mile per week faster; but during these phases, you would be doing, say, 5 or more seconds per mile per week faster.  This is actually where the term Progress Calibration came from--you are calibrating your progress each week by checking how this progress is going--and, as I think it should say, while the pace is getting quicker, your HR should pretty much stay the same--in other words, this progress should come naturally, not by pushing extra hard.

         

        In short, with Running Wizard, there shouldn't be, in any place, that you are struggling to keep up with the progress.  If a certain workout's pace is too fast for you to maintain, you might have plugged in wrongly (say, put 5k time as 5 "mile" race time...--a common mistake we saw earlier!!).  In general, you should find almost all the workouts pace too easy for you.  RW would NOT push you unreasonably.  If anything, we nurture you guys gently and you should notice the progress without pushing--in other words, come naturally.

          Nobby, thanks again for the advice! I can definitely say that this first cycle with Running Wizard has been a learning experience and I have definitely screwed some stuff up along the way, but now that i am nearing the end I think I have most of it figured out Smile  Even with messing up some stuff (making some runs to short, not paying enough attention to pace, not using the RI's regularly) I can tell a huge improvement in my fitness and that is why I am so excited to use Running Wizard to start marathon training in May. I think I have figured out the terminology now and the ebbs and flow of the plan so that I can really utilize all aspects of it in my next training cycle. Countdown time now....two weeks until goal race!!!

            Good Morning guys! Seems like we have a lot of new faces around which is so great!

             

            how is everyone doing on their plans? I am currently trying to do a race week/non race week thing right now that is going okay. was super motivated my first week back on, but this week is tough. I have been cordinating a charity fundraiser that takes place this weekend and the last minute stress has done a number on my runs this week, but i am hopefully to go into next week and rest up and run a fast race next weekend.

             

            I plan to take one or maybe two weeks off and then will start my marathon plan. currently trying to decide if i am ready to make the jump from five days a week running to six days a week. trying it over the summer is a good thing since my kids schedules will be more laid back, but wondering if any of you out there running a six day a week plan can tell me if there is a good way to drop a run a week. i figure that maybe once every three weeks i am going to have to drop a run and so i want to make sure that it is worth it still. i might just do a five day a week plan and then add in an easy run if it's possible to up the mileage a bit

             

            anyway...hope you  all are doing well! those of you getting ready to race, enjoy your taper!! and those of you just starting your plans, keep up the good work!


            Obligatory runner.

              Christirei- I'm doing  a 6 day hm plan (though in practice I generally take a day off every 10 days). One of the runs is always a jog or short fartlek that you can easily skip. It's usually the day after the long run.

               

               

               

              I'm grouchy because my son had a bad reaction to his tetanus booster and could barely walk yesterday he was in so much pain. Seems a bit better now but not normal yet. also, we both have a cold. And I am, as mentioned, tapering and thus feel fat and unfit. Grrrr!

                I feel your pain Harriet! I felt fat during my taper too! And this week my doctor told me to try eggs with my daughter whonhas a mild egg allergy and she had a major reaction to them! Like scratching and drawing blood all over. It was terrible! Hope your little guy feels better soon!


                Hungry

                  Christirei and Harriet, sorry to hear about your kids! I hope all is well and that they get better soon. We have ongoing health issues with our kids, so I share your pain.

                  I am in the middle of the Intervals phase. It's tough, but I like it. I did a 12x400m workout yesterday (Wed), and a 4x1mile workout on Monday. It reminds me a bit of being back in high school cross-country practice. We did LOTS of intervals back then ... but not nearly enough aerobic base-building to support it. I always felt exhausted in races and never felt that I reached my full potential. I feel pretty good today (one day after a pretty tough workout) ... so my question is:

                  Am I pushing it hard enough? My 400's were towards the faster end of the Pace range in my plan, but my HR MAX (which occurred on my twelfth and fastest of my 400's) was only just slightly above the MIN HR prescribed in the plan. I am OK with this result, but was wondering if this is typical or acceptable. I am willing to push harder, just wondering if it would be counter-productive. Any thoughts?


                  Obligatory runner.

                    Christirei and Harriet, sorry to hear about your kids! I hope all is well and that they get better soon. We have ongoing health issues with our kids, so I share your pain.

                    I am in the middle of the Intervals phase. It's tough, but I like it. I did a 12x400m workout yesterday (Wed), and a 4x1mile workout on Monday. It reminds me a bit of being back in high school cross-country practice. We did LOTS of intervals back then ... but not nearly enough aerobic base-building to support it. I always felt exhausted in races and never felt that I reached my full potential. I feel pretty good today (one day after a pretty tough workout) ... so my question is:

                    Am I pushing it hard enough? My 400's were towards the faster end of the Pace range in my plan, but my HR MAX (which occurred on my twelfth and fastest of my 400's) was only just slightly above the MIN HR prescribed in the plan. I am OK with this result, but was wondering if this is typical or acceptable. I am willing to push harder, just wondering if it would be counter-productive. Any thoughts?

                     

                    My dude was feeling a lot better by this evening. I think he'll be back to normal tomorrow.

                     

                    Christirei how awful!! Your poor daughter. I hope she's better now.

                     

                    Subdood - I had a similar question to yours in the thread titled something like "Legs vs. Lungs." Nobby answered. Maybe interesting for you? I wasn't using a HR monitor, but had similar observations based on taking my HR manually right after the intervals. Anyway, check out what Nobby said.

                     

                    In retrospect, I think that yes I clearly could have pushed harder and done almost all of my intervals a lot faster, but I was tired enough as it was. Not exhausted, but definitely tired enough. I thought the intervals weeks were freaking hard, with intervals on T&Th, PCR on Sat, long run Sun. Faster/harder intervals would have pushed me over the edge into being overtired and probably sick, if not injured.

                      Hi Subdood

                       

                      I'm into my third week of my HM plan and I'm finding a similar thing. So far most of my runs have been at the fast end of the pace range, or faster, with my heart rate in the low/middle of the range.

                       

                      For example this morning's out and back:

                       

                        Suggested Range Actual
                      Distance 6km 4.5 - 7.0 6.7
                      Time 40:00 34 - 44 40:12
                      Pace 6:38 7:13 - 6:15 5:59
                      Heart Rate   136 - 158 avg 146

                       

                      The way I have been approaching each run is to aim for the suggested time and try to keep my heart rate above the minimum in the range. I also check out the RPE and make sure my perceived effort falls within the guidelines, speeding up or slowing down as needed.

                       

                      I should add that I am on medication that drops my heart rate by 5 - 10 bpm so I may not be a typical example Smile

                       

                      As for whether you're pushing hard enough: I don't know. I'll leave that for the experts.

                       

                      I am in the middle of the Intervals phase. It's tough, but I like it. I did a 12x400m workout yesterday (Wed), and a 4x1mile workout on Monday. It reminds me a bit of being back in high school cross-country practice. We did LOTS of intervals back then ... but not nearly enough aerobic base-building to support it. I always felt exhausted in races and never felt that I reached my full potential. I feel pretty good today (one day after a pretty tough workout) ... so my question is:

                      Am I pushing it hard enough? My 400's were towards the faster end of the Pace range in my plan, but my HR MAX (which occurred on my twelfth and fastest of my 400's) was only just slightly above the MIN HR prescribed in the plan. I am OK with this result, but was wondering if this is typical or acceptable. I am willing to push harder, just wondering if it would be counter-productive. Any thoughts?

                      Geoff


                      Hungry

                        Harriet -- I will check out your Legs & Lungs. Thanks!

                        Geoff -- Thanks. My issue seems more pronounced than what you describe. I'm in week 16, Anaerobic phase, Intervals.  My plan HR range for Intervals is Min 163 - Max 180 bpm. But during my 12x400m interval session, my HR peaked just for a second at 166 bpm on my last interval. My average was only something like 144 bpm, and I obviously go much lower during my recovery intervals, 130 or so. I'm not super concerned; the workout was tough, but I could've gone faster. (I ran my 400's in 1:34 to 1:39; the 1:34 is at the fast end of my range.)  My Max HR is around 182 (I think -- 173 according to 220-Age, but that can't be right ...), and my LT is around 162 (I think). So I think it makes sense that my actual peak HR was above my LT, but well below my Max. But should my peak be closer to my Max HR? OK, I'll go read the  Legs/Lungs thread now and see if I can learn something!

                        Thanks again.

                        MTA: Ah, just read Legs vs. Lungs. I guess I'm really testing how "idiot-proof" the plan is after all! So, for now, I'll stick with the paces and not worry much about where my HR ends up. If nothing else, I'll be following the maxim, "If in doubt, do less." Oh, and the "Interval Question" thread also has some really good advice from Nobby.

                          Hey guys, sounds like everyone has been having a good week with time trials and races!! Good job to you guys! I had a horribly stressful fundraising event over the weekend and then, my family got a stomach bug! With all of life happening it has been three days since I have run with my second 5k coming up on Sat May 4th. So, I guess I am heading into my race week nice and rested already Smile I will probably try to run M/W/F this week, the same as my final taper week before my first attempt, so an easy fartlek tomorrow morning, up tempo run on Wed and a nice easy job on Friday before race day Saturday.

                           

                          After this final attempt at my goal 5K time I will take a week of easy running and then jump into my marathon plan! Since Harrient seemed encouraging I am going to up my days from five days of running to six...we'll see how that pans out!

                           

                          Good running guys, sounds like everyone is doing really great!


                          Obligatory runner.

                            Hey guys, sounds like everyone has been having a good week with time trials and races!! Good job to you guys! I had a horribly stressful fundraising event over the weekend and then, my family got a stomach bug! With all of life happening it has been three days since I have run with my second 5k coming up on Sat May 4th. So, I guess I am heading into my race week nice and rested already Smile I will probably try to run M/W/F this week, the same as my final taper week before my first attempt, so an easy fartlek tomorrow morning, up tempo run on Wed and a nice easy job on Friday before race day Saturday.

                             

                            After this final attempt at my goal 5K time I will take a week of easy running and then jump into my marathon plan! Since Harrient seemed encouraging I am going to up my days from five days of running to six...we'll see how that pans out!

                             

                            Good running guys, sounds like everyone is doing really great!

                             

                            It's always something, isn't it?? Hope you're all healthy now.

                             

                            My dude recovered from the vaccine trauma, but he had a pretty bad cold. Seems better today! I didn't even get out to jog yesterday because he was not doing well. I couldn't convince him to put on pants so we could go out with the baby jogger.

                             

                            My mantra for this taper period: it is what it is...and some running is better than no running. I'm relieved my time trial went well; if I can hold consistent 7 minute(ish) pace for that long running alone then I must be in better shape than I thought. (well, I was pretend-chasing some guy like 20 feet in front of me who was running the same pace but looked like he was out for a jog...never did catch him, hope my heavy breathing didn't freak him out too much!)

                             

                            MTA: Uptempo is DONE. Shortest workout ever! Woohoo? I guess?

                              Thats what I thought after my first uptempo workout...i was like, huh....that's it...i guess

                               

                              Smile

                               

                              i will do another tomorrow morning, but i guess the purpose of taper phase is keep you sharp but get you rested...so a nice warm up, short burst, and nice long cool down pretty much accomplishes that!

                                Harriet, were you able to find another half marathon?? How have you been running recently??

                                 

                                Hope you can find a race to put all of that training to good use soon!!