Running-Wizard

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Longest long run (Read 87 times)

     

    I still haven't received a reply to my query about this, which I'm not too happy about. I'm running the upper suggested distances for each run, and steadily increasing the "over distance" on the weekly long run which I seem to be handling easily so far. I might have to add another aerobic run mid-week to increase the total weekly distance.

      

    Did you try sending Nobby a PM through here?  I too sent a query via RW and never heard a response, but he responded to a PM within a few hours.  Maybe they're having an issue with the RW messaging system.

      Man, I guess I never realized I was so "wanted"!!  I have a bit of a pressing matter right now so I'd come back here later but, basically, as CR mentioned, we basically CAPPED the long run at 2:30 (2:45 as the longest suggested duration).  This is because we felt that, anything longer that, you'd get too much muscle trauma and it'll become hit-and-miss of training effect vs. too much to recover quickly enough.  That is NOT to say you cannot go anything longer than that; I might, and had before, switched it to over-3 hours (but not too much longer than 3-hours) for some people before more so for psychological purpose than anything else.  I had this guy who had the longest run capped at 12-miles (okay, it's still 20km...) and his previous PR was 5:30 and he improved to 4:50.  To be honest with you, I'm sort of experimenting myself.  One thing I can say is, so far, I've seen rapid improvement from SCRATCHING 3 X 20-miler regime.  In other words, most people today are doing too much.

       

      Now, the OP's issue is; and I really do hate to say it this way, but...we set this up in such way that, as I said, we capped the longest run at 2:30 (or 2:45) and, whatever the suggested pace that comes out, the distance will be determined.  In other words, if your suggested training pace is not very fast, naturally, your overall long run's DISTANCE will be quite short.  Is it adequate to prepare for a marathon?  I don't know...  But we DO know that this is a very safe way to train.  You know, actually, at this point, my best recommendation is; try RW for 5k once or twice before you move onto a marathon plan.  Far too many people jump to run a marathon before they prepare themselves to handle an adequate marathon training.  And that actually includes improving some level of speed.  In fact, I'm re-doing Arthur's original "Jogging with Lydiard" back in 1970.  In it, he said that you shouldn't even try to "race" until you can run ONE MILE in 8-minutes.  In other words, he's suggesting "8-minute for one mile" speed, or fitness level, as a pre-requisit to move on.

      ------

      Wait!!  I just thought of something and......okay, did you plug in your 4:56 marathon time or your 26:23 5k time?  If I plugged in the latter, your long run came out as 20k (or 23 for the longest); if I plug in your marathon time, I got 17k (with 20 being the longest).  Chances are, your previous marathon time is not up to par--you basically ran through it.  Perhaps we would need to have a disclaimer or something but, personally, I usually suggest people to use 5k time--I feel 5k is probably the best indicator.  If this is the case, we would be more than happy to switch your plan (for OP).  How has all the other workout's pace felt like?  Has it felt too slow or just right?  That's another factor in equation too....

      frank777


      Phew!

        Nobby

        good to hear from you! I have actually run two half marathons each year for the past few years (and several over the past 15-20 years), so I don't think I'm jumping into a marathon without adequate preparation. My only marathon, back in 2000, was a matter of just hanging in to finish; I've looked at my training log several times since and I marvel at how I finished at all - I really had no idea! All I wanted was that t-shirt Dead

         

        I entered my most recent HM time (from last July) of 2:04:08 into RW  - I thought that would be the most appropriate race to base the marathon training plan on. How could a 5k time be the best indicator for a race eight times that distance?

         

        The decision to run the marathon (not finally decided yet) was a late one - I want to run with and support my daughter in her first, and ideally I could have done with several more weeks of the plan. But I was running and cycling even before the plan started 3 weeks ago, so it's not as though I'm coming off a zero base. Running four times a week is the most I've ever done (it's not hard, just hard to get out of bed!), and now I wish I had committed to five runs per week in order to increase my weekly mileage (kilometreage?). If I wanted to run an extra day per week, what would you suggest I should do?

         

        As for pace, I find I'm running at least 30-45 sec/km faster than the faster end of the suggested pace.  I try to keep it within range, but my natural pace is faster than what the plan suggests. I tried using a heart monitor and again keeping within the suggested range was a challenge. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm doing the maximum time suggested for each workout (or even a bit more) and so far there have been absolutely no problems, and the recovery indicators have been consistently good.

         

        Frank

          Nobby, just a note about your last comment/question: I'm working with a runner who got a 4 day RW plan, and her goal MP according to RW is 3:45, and she plugged in her 5k time (around 22:XX) to arrive at that goal time, and her longest run came out as 14 (11-16 for the range), which also seems short. I am just curious if this is a problem with the overall mileage rather than the pace alone.

          zonykel


              And that actually includes improving some level of speed.  In fact, I'm re-doing Arthur's original "Jogging with Lydiard" back in 1970.  In it, he said that you shouldn't even try to "race" until you can run ONE MILE in 8-minutes.  In other words, he's suggesting "8-minute for one mile" speed, or fitness level, as a pre-requisit to move on.

            Looking for some clarification here: is the 8-minute mile the suggested "easy" pace or race pace?

              Just for ONE MILE; not pace or anything.

              Looking for some clarification here: is the 8-minute mile the suggested "easy" pace or race pace?

                14 miles is about 23km.  I'm not sure if it's "not long enough"...  I helped one lady before and her longest run was 18-mile but once.  She was a 3:40 runner and she improved it down to 3:24.  Another one the longest was one 17-mile and she did 3:20.  I think I mentioned; this other guy with previous PR being 5:30 and he did go one 3-hour but it was around 14-miles.  He did 4:50.

                 

                There are a couple of things--one is; the way we set up RW (in a way, much like, though I shouldn't speak for it because I actually haven't read it, the Hanson's training principles), we have pretty much back-to-back long Out & Back run followed the next day with a long run.  Like Dan Miller said (remember him?), he had done those long runs and now his long runs are shorter but it's a back-to-back total volume over the weekend (I think, in his case, it was something like 27-miles over the weekend--2 days--or something like that).  He didn't PR but, as you know, it was a terrible condition at CAL marathon.  I don't think he felt anything but lack of long runs.

                 

                Sure, 14-miles seem to be cutting a bit short.  You know what; YOU TELL ME!!  If your friend doesn't PR, we'll refund him/her!! (barring the course and weather condition!! ;o)).

                Nobby, just a note about your last comment/question: I'm working with a runner who got a 4 day RW plan, and her goal MP according to RW is 3:45, and she plugged in her 5k time (around 22:XX) to arrive at that goal time, and her longest run came out as 14 (11-16 for the range), which also seems short. I am just curious if this is a problem with the overall mileage rather than the pace alone.

                  Frank:

                   

                  I like to use 5k because it represents your "speed" better than longer events for most people.  In other words, Running Wizard's training pace is based on calculated VO2Max based on your race time(s).  All these are based on statistics; we stacked up information of all the different runners and calculated (sort of) average times--that's pretty much what all the other calculators would do.  We have tested this with some elite runners as well as recreational runners.  Now, bear in mind, however; it IS still nothing more than a guide.  For example, last summer, we had the rare occasion of having Peter Snell, a triple Olympic champion, and Frank Shorter, Olympic marathon champion.  It was interesting to plug in their times--Frank's marathon or 10000m time (he was actually a better runner in 10k) as well as Peter's mile time.  Frank should have been able to run something like 3:56 mile but he never broke 4.  Snell, on the other hand, should have run 2:08 marathon but he staggered in in 2:41.  But we got most of their training times pretty close.

                   

                  Workout pace is determined with your "race" time.  Most recreational runners can "race" 5k fairly well.  But many can't even "race" marathon; they usually just ran through 26-miles, turning it into nothing more than a glorified long run.  This can be said for a beginning runner and 5k.  They don't "race" 5k; they merely "run" through 5k.  For the beginner, I actually prefer trying out a mile test run.  In your case, for example, according to our calculator--and you can use any other known calculator--indicated that, based on your 5k time, you should be able to run a half marathon in 2:00 and the marathon in 4:15.  So you're 4-minutes off for the half and over a half an hour for the full.  This actually indicates your endurance being under-developed.  If you use these times, because we used the duration (time) as a cap for the long run, your training pace will come out too easy--as it seems it already does.  Of course, we have to be careful because so many beginners and inexperienced runners tend to train too hard.  In other words, there's not much difference between their marathon "race" pace and their long run pace.  Unfortunately, right now, we don't have a program to predict this one way or the other.  You just have to use your own best judgement.  Perhaps the best thing to know this is to use Recovery Indicators diligently.  If it goes into the red zone too often, you'll know your pace is too fast.  Or if it hardly ever goes into the red zone, maybe you could bump up your pace a bit.

                   

                  If you feel like you could easily manage 5-days-a-week training, you can throw one extra day of "nice and easy jogging" on the rest day.  I always feel that a good jogging (I mean, jogging) won't hurt anybody.  And I also believe it's the over-all total volume of training that matters more than a single "long" run(s).  Remember, when Salazar ran his first marathon, his longest run was something like 14-miles, mostly 12.  But his total weekly mileage was 120 miles a week.  Far too many beginners today think that, as long as they do a super long run(s) like 20-miles or multiple of those.  But the truth is; some of them may have to take 4 or 5 days to recover--indicating clearly that they are not even ready.  I can say this confidently that those who seem to be "under-trained" would do better in the end.

                   

                  Nobby

                  good to hear from you! I have actually run two half marathons each year for the past few years (and several over the past 15-20 years), so I don't think I'm jumping into a marathon without adequate preparation. My only marathon, back in 2000, was a matter of just hanging in to finish; I've looked at my training log several times since and I marvel at how I finished at all - I really had no idea! All I wanted was that t-shirt Dead

                   

                  I entered my most recent HM time (from last July) of 2:04:08 into RW  - I thought that would be the most appropriate race to base the marathon training plan on. How could a 5k time be the best indicator for a race eight times that distance?

                   

                  The decision to run the marathon (not finally decided yet) was a late one - I want to run with and support my daughter in her first, and ideally I could have done with several more weeks of the plan. But I was running and cycling even before the plan started 3 weeks ago, so it's not as though I'm coming off a zero base. Running four times a week is the most I've ever done (it's not hard, just hard to get out of bed!), and now I wish I had committed to five runs per week in order to increase my weekly mileage (kilometreage?). If I wanted to run an extra day per week, what would you suggest I should do?

                   

                  As for pace, I find I'm running at least 30-45 sec/km faster than the faster end of the suggested pace.  I try to keep it within range, but my natural pace is faster than what the plan suggests. I tried using a heart monitor and again keeping within the suggested range was a challenge. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm doing the maximum time suggested for each workout (or even a bit more) and so far there have been absolutely no problems, and the recovery indicators have been consistently good.

                   

                  Frank

                    Nobby, I pointed out the importance (central) of the back to back long runs (and I have read the Hanson's book) and that is absolutely crucial for the "shorter" long run to be effective, both for RW and Lydiard and Hanson's (which is Lydiard - but they don't work with the same system of phases), and I agree that there is no one answer to "how long should a long run be?" which is why one must look at the whole picture - which includes total miles - which still seems a tad low (IMO) for a 4 day week. The runner who I mentioned, btw, is running 6 days a week and doing very well with the training and hit many mid-high 50 mile weeks.  And she will PR because you trained me and I'm training her Wink  But I think one of the purposes of this group is to work out the possible glitches in the system. I'm using the program (okay, I've tweaked it a bit) too to test on myself and learn more about the whole system, so I'm just pointing these things out in the hope of learning more.

                    ~ Caolan

                    frank777


                    Phew!

                      Thanks for your reply Nobby. It's starting to make a bit more sense now, and now I have more understanding and appreciation of the back-to-back weekend runs.

                        Also, another thing many seem to overlook is the importance of "consistency".  With RW, once you get up to, say, 2-hours, you'll continue that duration every weekend (you'll dip down just a tad and, also, once you start Hills and Intervals, you'll actually slow down a bit so the over-all distance may slacken a bit; but you continue doing the long run every week until in the final few weeks).  Trust me; the power of consistency might surprise you in the end.  It adds up.

                        Thanks for your reply Nobby. It's starting to make a bit more sense now, and now I have more understanding and appreciation of the back-to-back weekend runs.

                        frank777


                        Phew!

                          Also, another thing many seem to overlook is the importance of "consistency".  With RW, once you get up to, say, 2-hours, you'll continue that duration every weekend (you'll dip down just a tad and, also, once you start Hills and Intervals, you'll actually slow down a bit so the over-all distance may slacken a bit; but you continue doing the long run every week until in the final few weeks).  Trust me; the power of consistency might surprise you in the end.  It adds up.

                           

                          And I think that's been part of my problem over the years - lack of consistency.

                          laurita


                            Hello, everyone. Today i just got my training program, and like Frank, i selected 4 days/week; in my case i ended up with a 15 mi long run (12-17.5mi)  15 weeks before the race date, i realized the suggested pace is 9:05 / mi (9:54-8:37), making the total training time 2:18 (1:57-2:31).  After that week, my program has 4 weeks of consecutive 13.5 mi long runs (week 14-week 11),  then 4 weeks of consecutive 12 mi long runs (week 10-week 7), week 6 is 9.5 mi, week 5 and 4 are 9 mi, week 3 is 8.5 mi, week 2 is 7mi and week 1 is 6 mi.  I realized too that on week 6 the Out and back run goes from 7.5 mi to 11.5 mi, and it stays around 11-10.5 mi, until week 2, when it only calls 5k or 10k.

                             

                            Iam worried i wont make it to run 26.2 mi!!! Ive never gone past 13.1 mi and the idea of going further than that seems crazy right now. Please help.

                             

                            Personal background ( in case is any help for recommendations), i was always active person though highschool and college, doing at least 3-6 hours of some kind of weekly excercise (step, tae bo, aerobics, weight training, general fitness classes), then i graduated and started working crazy hours (80-100 hours per week), i couldnt manage to workout for about 2 years. On November 2008 i started swimming and doing weight training, on May 2009 i tried to start running and after i figured i needed good shoes if i wanted to keep running, i signed up for a half marathon race and started my training on July 2009. I was able to run right away 5 mi with a 10:00 / mi pace. I finished my first half marathon in October 2009 in 1:54:45,i did a second on December 2011 in 1:53:49.30 and the last one, in Austin (lots of hills) on February 2013 in 1:44:01. The last race was actually very nice not only because i improved my time but because at the end i was still feeling strong and much much better compared to the previous races, very nice experience. I started going to a boxing fitness class in February 2012 and biking when is possible in October 2012. I have not raced yet for a 5k, but i have happned to be extremely happy running 3 mi after biking at least 2 different times (10-30 mi) and without realizing those have been my shortest times with like 21-23 min.

                             

                            I will appreciate very much your support to make it to my first marathon! Smile 

                            Laura

                              Laura:

                               

                              I saw your Q @ Facebook too. I'm traveling today so let me get back to you tonight. One of the (if Moët THE) most frequently asked question. Meanwhile however, read the discussion here and RW FAQ and Coaches Forum As well as some other guys' comments @ Facebook. In short, people are doing great--better and faster--without those multiple 20-milers. So what's your objective? Race better or run multiple 20-milers?

                               

                              Hello, everyone. Today i just got my training program, and like Frank, i selected 4 days/week; in my case i ended up with a 15 mi long run (12-17.5mi)  15 weeks before the race date, i realized the suggested pace is 9:05 / mi (9:54-8:37), making the total training time 2:18 (1:57-2:31).  After that week, my program has 4 weeks of consecutive 13.5 mi long runs (week 14-week 11),  then 4 weeks of consecutive 12 mi long runs (week 10-week 7), week 6 is 9.5 mi, week 5 and 4 are 9 mi, week 3 is 8.5 mi, week 2 is 7mi and week 1 is 6 mi.  I realized too that on week 6 the Out and back run goes from 7.5 mi to 11.5 mi, and it stays around 11-10.5 mi, until week 2, when it only calls 5k or 10k.

                               

                              Iam worried i wont make it to run 26.2 mi!!! Ive never gone past 13.1 mi and the idea of going further than that seems crazy right now. Please help.

                               

                              Personal background ( in case is any help for recommendations), i was always active person though highschool and college, doing at least 3-6 hours of some kind of weekly excercise (step, tae bo, aerobics, weight training, general fitness classes), then i graduated and started working crazy hours (80-100 hours per week), i couldnt manage to workout for about 2 years. On November 2008 i started swimming and doing weight training, on May 2009 i tried to start running and after i figured i needed good shoes if i wanted to keep running, i signed up for a half marathon race and started my training on July 2009. I was able to run right away 5 mi with a 10:00 / mi pace. I finished my first half marathon in October 2009 in 1:54:45,i did a second on December 2011 in 1:53:49.30 and the last one, in Austin (lots of hills) on February 2013 in 1:44:01. The last race was actually very nice not only because i improved my time but because at the end i was still feeling strong and much much better compared to the previous races, very nice experience. I started going to a boxing fitness class in February 2012 and biking when is possible in October 2012. I have not raced yet for a 5k, but i have happned to be extremely happy running 3 mi after biking at least 2 different times (10-30 mi) and without realizing those have been my shortest times with like 21-23 min.

                               

                              I will appreciate very much your support to make it to my first marathon! Smile 

                              Laura

                                We fully realize "most" conventional training plan call for multiple 20-milers.  It is so because it's the easiest thing anybody can do and say.  "Do 3 X 20-milers to prepare for a marathon..."  There; I said it!!  Any idiot can suggest that.  It's even easier to say; "If you want to break 4-hours for a marathon, run 20-miles at 9-minute-mile pace in training..."  Make sense; easy to say...and it's true.  Would they all break 4-hours?  No.  Most likely, they'll end up getting injured.  In other words, if you are at the level where you can run several 20-milers without any problem, then you probably don't need much of a training plan to just run a marathon--you're already there!  We created a plan to tailor to YOU.  And our number one goal is to get you to the start line the best prepared possible and on the top of the list for that is not hurt or burnt-out.

                                 

                                If someone comes to us whose current level is, say, 30-minutes being the maximum long run; then we would turn around and say, okay, you'll need minimum of 32 weeks to get ready.  And the first 2/3 of the part, we'll concentrate on building the duration of the run up to 2-hours (minimum).  We would NOT give a "conventional" training plan like, okay, run three 20-milers...and the person may only have 12 weeks.  Possible?  Probably...  Would that person be healthy and ready to go on the race day?  Doubtful.  We realize that we may lose some customer by telling them; "Sorry, but you're not quite ready yet", but we wanted to keep it to the truth.  In other words, we didn't create our plans based on what the users would like to hear.  Sometimes it's a bitter pill to swallow to hear, sorry, but you're not quite ready to train for a marathon...  Because many people today start running a few months and they start looking for a marathon race to enter!!  Is it possible?  Sure!!  Is it a healthy approach?  I doubt it.

                                 

                                I'm posting the same thing at Facebook (copy and paste!! ;o)).

                                 

                                We identified 3-hours as a max duration--anything beyond that, the chance of microscopic muscle damage becomes too large that you would need extra recovery.  In other words, that workout would become THE big effort and that's it.  I've heard someone saying, trying to cover 18-20 miles, taking more than 4.5 hours on weekend and having to take 4 or 5 days to recover from that effort!!  3-hours you can still come back and have a decent workout the next day--if not the following day, certainly with a day's rest.  Our plan goes up to 2.5 hours, with the longest suggested duration being 2:45 IF you're already at the level of running 2-hours comfortably at the start of the plan. It is not so much distance (miles) but the duration that matters when it comes to the muscular damage.  Faster people can cover greater distance within 2:30, slower people less--but the fact is; the slower you run, the more shock you get (to a point) because the speed at which the Center of Gravity moves over where your foot lands is slower; hence the force of landing will not be dispersed as rapidly.  So actually slower people have a greater chance of getting hurt by going too far.

                                 

                                Another fact, which is actually FINALLY seems to be recognized lately, thanks to the Hanson brothers; is the over-all effort/volume.  The Hansons have been talking about not going beyond 16-miles but, instead, to have a back-to-back workouts like long run followed by a tempo run.  If you look at our plan, there are 2 things--one is that, once you reached 2-hour mark (or 2:30), then from then on, you'll be doing close that long run level every weekend thereafter until like 3 weeks before the marathon.  In other words, you may not have THE longest run closer to the actual marathon, you will maintain almost to that highest level every week.  Again, we believe consistency is more important than THE one big effort.  Second; you will have longish tempo run (Out & Back) the day before the Long Jog in the final 4-6 weeks.  One guy who ran something like 2:40 at CAL Marathon a few months ago (didn't PR because of the terrible weather condition) said that he realized that he would be doing something like 17-mile tempo run followed by 20-mile jog (remember, he's a fast guy) on the weekend and it was quite hard effort but, unlike his previous 25-mile run, didn't beat up his legs/body.  If you're at 15-mile being the long run level, then you should be doing something like 12-mile tempo run the day before those long jog in the final 4-6 weeks.  In fact, the longest Out & Back run (it should be something like 1:45) 4-6 weeks before the marathon, as we had identified, as THE most critical workout.  It's near (not quite still) marathon pace workout at a very high level of duration.  THAT to us is the dress rehearsal.  Not just simple 20-miler or 23-miler or whatever.

                                 

                                Last year (actually it was 2 summers ago), I had a long chat with Rod Dixon who was helping out LA Marathon training group.  Their original plan had 4 X 20-milers.  After our talk, he cut back the distance (I think he brought it down to 16-miles).  Granted, he said they included some core-exercises as well but, after LA marathon, he texted me and said the group's "finish rate" went up from 75% to 95%; and the injury rate dropped from 27% to 5.

                                 

                                A few years ago, I helped this young lady and, without knowing, her husband at the same time.  She had the PR of 4:50 but his was 5:30.  They were doing "conventional" 3 X 20-miler training.  I cut it all back.  In fact, if I remember it correctly, they did ONE 13-miler.  But, just as RW is, gave them hill training, intervals, even sprint training (Cut-Downs, 50/50)...  The week of the marathon, her husband wrote to me (for the first time because I was corresponding with her) and told me that it was the first time he reached that far into the marathon training "without sore legs or injuries".  He went out and ran 4:50.  To this day, this has been one of my biggest success stories.

                                 

                                A few years back, I helped my wife's friend; she was in her early 30s and had run 3:40 but stuck there (she had run 3:40 3 or 4 times).  She was doing "conventional" 3 X 20-miler training plan, sometimes X4.  I cut them all back.  I think she did one 12-miler, one 16 and one 18 (3-hours).  But instead, I had her do some hills and intervals and got her 5k time down by 50-seconds.  She ran 3:30.  The following year, by doing a prototype Running Wizard 18-week plan, she ran 3:24 at Chicago after coming down with sinus infection leading up to the race.  Actually, there's another factor.  Hill training, as we had laid out, would get you ready for UP and DOWN the hills and it would strengthen your legs so much to prepare for the poundings of the marathon.

                                 

                                We had "refunded" people when they came back to us, saying "this plan is not complete!!"  But we have had a very good success with this plan and we don't see much reason to alter it.  We are, however, thinking about creating a "survival" marathon plan that would go as much as 3-hours (instead of 2:30).  But that is about it.  The Lydiard training, which we based Running Wizard on, is a proven training program.  Many people today overlook this fact but MUCH better than some of the "conventional" training program which, like I said, seem to be tailored more toward what the audience would like to hear instead of what really works and had worked.

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