Trailer Trash

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Cash Prizes for Trail Races-Your Thoughts? (Read 250 times)

ultratrailrunner


    Hi All,

     

    I am curious about the general trail running community's opinion about cash purses. I have been seeing a lot of the bigger names push for larger cash prizes in more trail races. Mainly Karl Meltzer has been vocal about thinking it would bring more competition and be good for the sport. I think it is important for us to discuss as it will ultimately impact our registration fees and I fear that race directors will just hear the few loud people at the top and not get the feedback from the majority of the race participants. For the most part I am against large cash prizes for the below reasons:

     

    • I would prefer to see registration fees kept low, that would attract more people to more races in general and have a benefit to the sport.
    • I would rather see more trail runs that benefit charities instead of cash purses. Almost every marathon in America benefits charity but you have to search for a ultramarathon that benefits people other the race organizers and participants.
    • It distracts from the spirit of trail running. In the trail races I've been in are largely an atmosphere of comradery. People are out enjoying the challenge of nature and are always good stewards to the environment. Generally I feel that people who race in road races are hugely time obsessed and always looking to beat their PR or advance a spot in the standings. Not that trail runners aren't competitive, but I think they have a completely different mind set and philosophy. I hate to see when people take out a Gel then just through the waste on the side of the road because holding it for another 2 miles to an aid station is just too much effort and I certainly don't want to see this in on trails on our public lands because people are competing for cash.

    The last point there is kind of muddled because I don't have anything against road races or competition, I just think that it may change the focus of trail running .

     

    Your thoughts?


    Uh oh... now what?

      I think Meltzer is talking about ultramarathons, not the shorter trail runs.

       

      I don't see the benefit of more people at events, again, are you talking trail races

      or ultramarathons or both. This statement does not mean I am against the sport's

      growth (trail races or ultramarathons).

       

      I would like to see the statistics confirming your assertion "Almost every marathon

      in America benefits charity..." I don't really care what the RD does with my money. If

      you don't like what an RD does, don't enter that event. To have the RD dedicate a

      percentage of the fees to charity, won't they need to increase fees?

       

      You have a marathon versus ultramarathon comparison, not a marathon versus trail

      runs (some trail runs are ultramarathons, some are not--I have no statistics about which is what).

       

      Numerically (number of entrants) you could take two or three major marathons and

      outnumber the number of entrants in all the ultras held in the U.S. so even if you get

      all the RDs to do the charity thing, the road marathons will still outperform the

      ultramarathon world. You would still be faced with the ultramarathon RDs not doing

      as much as the roadies.

       

      You are writing as if racing and running are the same. They are not. Prize money is for racing, not running.

      ultratrailrunner


        Thanks for your input. I'm all for RDs making money for putting together a good event and you make a good point that trail runs are by nature smaller events so the margin for profit is pretty slim. I just don't like paying a steep registration fee when I know a certain percentage of that is going to the cash purse. Also a good point that prizes money is for racers not runners but most of event participants are runners participating for fun not money but have to pay the for the cash prize for the minority of participants that are there to race and are gunning for first place. Personally I would like to see lower registration fees, if at the end of the day they have money left over or if they have sponsors I would like to see the money ear marked for a charitable cause not the prize purse. It provides another reason to enter a race other then just liking to run.

          (bolded text from ultratrailrunner's original post)

           

          • I would prefer to see registration fees kept low, that would attract more people to more races in general and have a benefit to the sport.

          Some (most?, all?) of the prize money is coming from sponsors or fundraising for the cash prize - at least in the ones where I've read some history, like Run Rabbit Run.

           

          • I would rather see more trail runs that benefit charities instead of cash purses. Almost every marathon in America benefits charity but you have to search for a ultramarathon that benefits people other the race organizers and participants.

          Most trail races that I've done do benefit some charity (registration fees, not necessarily having a fund raising requirement) - local trails, nature centers, college ski team, winter olympians, injured park ranger, etc. A couple support larger charities like diabetes and MS. Some support the running club that puts them on.

           

          • It distracts from the spirit of trail running. In the trail races I've been in are largely an atmosphere of comradery. ...

          I don't think cash prizes has anything to do with this, esp. the trash aspect. I did a couple races this summer that were either hybrid or gravel road (with 4000ft of uphill, not the typical "road marathon", but nevertheless, a road marathon). Both of these had trash on the ground - the road one only a little bit, but the hybrid had a bunch on the uphills. I hadn't gone prepared to pick up trash on my race, so only picked up a few gel packets (the whole packet, not just a tab that got loose). I was surprised / embarrassed that runners would dump that many gel wrappers on a property (university) where their support is absolutely critical to the continuation of the race. 2 yrs ago when I did the 50k option (same route), I don't remember seeing any trash. I do think it's newer people getting involved in trails. The 50th anniversary of this marathon undoubtedly attracted a lot of newer people to trails (race is about 2/3 trails, 1/3 roads, although I'm sure it had a larger percentage of trails 50 yr ago). I think they had 40% more runners than last year.

           

          There were no cash prizes for placing in either of these races although the hybrid did offer cash awards (few hundred dollars) for breaking course records.

           

          I read an interesting column by Gary Cantrell last night (April 2012 issue of Ultrarunning - View from the Open Road) about having championship races and some of the history of formalization, course measurement, etc. Most people would say it's not critical for trail running or maybe harmful. However, when asked if they'd like to have their sport considered a serious sport or be in the Olympics, most will say yes. An important element of that is having rules and championships. Cash prizes does seem to attract more competition. There's still room for the races that are who can get from the start line in the sand to the finish line where dirt meets asphalt.

           

          Unfortunately, I think we are seeing more trash on the trails - both in races and in general. This is not good and can jeopardize having races on those trails in the future. Responsible races are one way of getting trash picked up - both from other users and the race.

           

          PS: I'm not sure what races you're entering, but the one I did with cash prizes for breaking records had a $40 early registration fee, iirc. By day of race, they wanted up to $100 - just to encourage people to sign up ahead of time so they could plan. I'm not sure I've paid more than $60 registration fee for any race I've done so far, and that includes a 50-mi race.

          "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog


          Wandering Wally

            Would larger cash prizes also make the issue of doping a big(ger) deal in trail/ultra running?  For now, with the scarcity of large cash prizes, I'm sure there is some doping going on, but it's not really affecting much of anything except the people that are doing it.  When there is a large purse on the line, will that push more people to doping and bring scandal to our sport?  Are we ready for that kind of scrutiny?  The attention that larger purses might bring to the sport has two sides:  Good in some respects, not so good in others.

            Run!  Just Run!

             

            Trail Runner Nation Podcast

              Would larger cash prizes also make the issue of doping a big(ger) deal in trail/ultra running?  ...

              Good point. I think it will also require more rules than we're used to seeing. Here in the US, it's assumed you stay on the course and not cut switchbacks. With Europeans, it apparently is ok to cut switchbacks in their races, and they may not realize it's not allowed here. That needs to be made very clear over here. Getting permits for the races will depend on people staying on the course and no litter afterwards.

               

              Running is a simple sport - get from A to B before the others. But obviously, some races, esp. the bigger ones, have more rules - pacers or not, when, where, crew, aid, etc.

              "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog


              Uh oh... now what?

                I still like my $25 gift certificate to the local ice cream parlor in Placerville

                best.  Good pay for running 31 miles.


                Ultra Cowboy

                  utr, i agree with you. but I'm not competitive.

                   

                  most trail runners will never get a whiff of an overall win , and if the right people do or don't show up, they might win some age group schwag at the local run.  That is what I like about trail running. it is about the experience.  Nobody can tell you who won the Coyote ridge 50k in 2012, but everyone that was there can tell you how the sun looked as it broke through the morning fog. 

                   

                  Trail running is about including people.  If some elite 100 mile race  wants cash prizes then go for it.  The Recreation areas in the Marin headlands have an event every weekend, sometimes two.  There are four big race producers that have year end awards in a 50 mile radius of San Francisco. There are only so many user days available on those trails.  Cash prizes arent going to change that.

                   

                  now if they start televising Trail races on ESPN, then the money will just become part of it.  Runners will start to look like NASCAR drivers and we will be inundated with posts on the board from 12 year olds wanting to know "how can I get sponsored".   PFFFFFT.  I see it in archery, i don't need to see it in trail running. 

                  WYBMADIITY

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                  Trail Monster

                    Cash prizes usually come from big sponsorship money, not the race registration fee. So I have no problem with them. I'll also never win one so if the competition is stiffer up front the worst that happens is I finish a couple places further back. As long as there is food and water and maybe some AG awards that I might have a chance at I could really care less about what the prizes are or where the money goes.

                     

                    on that note, the trail races (not ultras) that I've done have all benefitted a charity or the trail we ran on or some other good cause. I doubt most of the small ultras have any profit. My husband and I had to put in $200 out of our own pockets on the last race we directed to make up the difference between sponsorship proceeds and costs (all registration fees went to a boy with a terminal illness). Unless its a big city marathon with 20-30,000 runners there's not going to be profit, period.

                    2013 races:

                    3/17 Shamrock Marathon

                    4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

                    7/27 Burning RIver 100M

                    8/24 Baker 50M

                    10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

                     

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                    Wandering Wally

                      A few days ago I was listenting to a podcast about how popular pedestrianism (forerunner to modern ultrarunning) was in the late 1800's.  The winners received cash prizes equivalent to a year's wages at that time.  Gambling was a big part of it and the crowds were huge by the standards of the day.  So, if gambling was allowed on Ultras and some big sponsors came in with some serious prize money ($100,000 to win?), maybe we'd see something like the late 1800's again?

                      Run!  Just Run!

                       

                      Trail Runner Nation Podcast


                      Uh oh... now what?

                        A few days ago I was listenting to a podcast about how popular pedestrianism (forerunner to modern ultrarunning) was in the late 1800's.  The winners received cash prizes equivalent to a year's wages at that time.  Gambling was a big part of it and the crowds were huge by the standards of the day.  So, if gambling was allowed on Ultras and some big sponsors came in with some serious prize money ($100,000 to win?), maybe we'd see something like the late 1800's again?

                         I will try to scan and post some of the part about the women, the pedestriennes... almost unheard of back then.

                         

                        From:  "Running Through the Ages", Edward S. Sears, "...To be considered decently attired, the women were required to wear heavy velvet dresses... "

                         

                        Yup, velvet dresses.

                         

                        rgot

                        LB2


                          A few days ago I was listenting to a podcast about how popular pedestrianism (forerunner to modern ultrarunning) was in the late 1800's.  The winners received cash prizes equivalent to a year's wages at that time.  Gambling was a big part of it and the crowds were huge by the standards of the day.  So, if gambling was allowed on Ultras and some big sponsors came in with some serious prize money ($100,000 to win?), maybe we'd see something like the late 1800's again?

                          Can you imagine betting money on some of these bigger 100 mile races? So many things can happen over that distance, no such thing as a sure thing. 

                          LB2

                          DoppleBock


                            Cash in ultra running is not of interest to me.  It is already really hard to get into some race - Selfishly I would rather not have to enter lotteries for every race out there or at least I would avoid the "Big Cash" races.

                             

                            But I still love running marathons - I just avoid the ones that do not appeal to me - Which is anyone that is a zoo - Except Boston, and that is only because my sister is running.

                             

                            Most traditional ultras have a limitied ability for more capacity - If trail ultra-running has a boom of popularity, the capacity remains unchanged.  Can supply keep up with demand with more and more races?  Maybe ... We have a limited, but growing supply in WI.  In 2012 IA50 and GT50 both filled.  IA50 filled early, but it is a Montrail Cup race.

                             

                            Has all the money added to marathons made USA marathoning that much more competetive since the 70s?  We have a gazillion marathons.  Any real money from US marathons is pretty much won by African runners. 

                             

                            I like what is available now - I see more downside than upside.

                            Long dead ... But my stench lingers !

                             

                             

                            DoppleBock


                              pedestrianism was a little different - I do not think there were too many people actually doing the races - Just a lot of press and interest in the races. Often a small race from 24hours to 6 days.

                               

                              Here is a stroy about Frank Hart winning the 6 day at Madison Square Gardens in 1880 (565 miles)

                               

                              http://www.blackpast.org/?q=aah/hart-frank-black-dan-1859

                               

                              From a hostorical viewpoint.  Current 1 day to 10 day racing is very similar to Pedestrianism.  Trail and Mountain Trail ultras are realtively young. 

                              Long dead ... But my stench lingers !

                               

                               

                                 I will try to scan and post some of the part about the women, the pedestriennes... almost unheard of back then.

                                 

                                From:  "Running Through the Ages", Edward S. Sears, "...To be considered decently attired, the women were required to wear heavy velvet dresses... "

                                 

                                Yup, velvet dresses.

                                 

                                rgot

                                 

                                I so want to do a race in a velvet dress.

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