Even though this is a trail forum there are also a lot of accomplished runners on here so I decided to ask my question here where I might get opinions from a more experienced crowd. I'm looking for a marathon program that will help me get fast enough to BQ this spring.
My back ground is 47 years old with 3.5 years of running, I ve completed 2 marathons. My last marathon was last spring and I did it in 3:52 with a disclaimer that I was a dumb ass the night before and got into some apple beer that gave me a bad head and some serious stomach issues during the race. I really felt 3:45 was do-able without all the bathroom breaks. Sense the marathon I have done two 50m races( a 9:21 time and a 10:47) and increased my base. My last speed race was around a month ago, I ran a 10k in 43:28, that was given it all I had. My easy pace without looking at a clock usually falls between 9 and 9:30 minute miles.
I am not a speedy guy and never done any real speed work, in the past anytime I try to get speedy something starts hurting but I can plod all day long. What plan do you think will give me a shot at a 7:49 pace for 26 miles? My log is open.
flashlight and sidewalk
McMillan Conversion calculator puts you just under 3:24 with your recent 10k. That's pretty darn close to your BQ time (3:25). I'm not one of those experienced runners that can suggest a plan...just thought I'd throw some extra info into the mix.
If it's going to be that close, make sure you pick a good (flat/downhill) course in a time of year/location that will have good weather.
**Ask me about streaking**
A few thoughts. I used to be more of a road runner with trails as something I did to supplement my training and as an "off season" thing.
Standard out of the box plans that worked for me were the Pfitzinger/Douglass training plans (or Pfitz) if you want to look those up. I always used the 12 week plans as I had a year long base and felt 18 weeks was too long of a period to focus/sharpen. The first time I used a Pfitz plan I was like a wound up spring on race day and totally surprised myself with a strong race and strong finish.
Anyway, my take on the importance of things.
1. Miles/endurance of course
2. Include strides or short pickups (100m or so) in some of your day to day runs. This helps you with the faster running below.
3. Tempo runs (faster than marathon pace runs)
4. Pace runs (marathon pace/effort)5. Speedwork (intervals)
The PR I set with my first Pfitz plan lasted many years. I finally cashed in my ultra training one year with an 8 week sharpening plan that included nothing more then tempo and pace running. Never broke 3 hours but I was close. The year I was nearly in shape to do it my hamstring acted up 5 days from my goal race. The marathon is weird that way.
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Are we there, yet?
What have you increased your base to? The race calculators increase in accuracy with higher bases. You're more likely to be able to run your marathon equivalent time on a 60 mpw base than on a 40 mpw base. It looks like you've been around 50 mpw but the last month is skewed with the 50M race and the rest of the weeks very low.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
Tim
Everyone has good advice, you just need to find what works best for you.
What I did:
“Paralysis-to-50k” training plan is underway!
I feel I have a decent 50 mpw base but very little speed work besides a few strides here and there unless I happen to jump into a local 5 or 10k. When I first looked at pfitz plan my first thought was there is to much speed work in it for me, in the past speed work has caused me pain in this part or that but I also had a much lower base. I need to order his book because by just looking at the plan without the back ground things look a little confusing.
Anybody else I should be looking at?
Hudson - Run Faster
Humphrey - Hansons' Marathon Method
I'm interested too. In the past, I've gotten (weak) PRs just by increasing overall weekly mileage, and doing some hill workouts. Right now I'm training for a 13.1 and while the training is obviously different I'm implementing a lot more speedwork and tempo workouts to get my time down. Also looking to PR in 26.2 sometime soon, maybe late 2014. I'm quite intrigued by Hanson-Brooks but not sure I would feel comfortable on race day having only done a 16 miler. Though a lot of people swear by them.
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NYCM: 11/4/2018
If it helps any in feeling more comfortable about Hanson-Brooks, I've run sub-3:00 with no training runs longer than 16. Of course that was long before they ever started coaching and my overall training looked quite a bit different 30+ years ago. I also raced a lot more at 5k - 10K, which in retrospect probably substituted for a lot of tempo runs.
Pace Prophet
I make my own training plan using Brad Hudson's book Run Faster as a guide. I don't use the plans in the back of the book; I use some of the workouts he suggests, but I build my own plan, which I think is what he actually intends people to do. This is how I do it:
1. Make a calendar grid. I use Van's spreadsheet generator and paste the results into Excel, with extra columns for total miles and goal miles. Mark the goal race and any intermediary races on the calendar.
2. Fill in goal mpw for each week. I start with what I'm doing now (or will be doing by then) and then increase a la Daniels, adding one mile per weekly run to the total and then holding for three weeks before increasing again. Hopefully your current mpw will allow you to reach your target with 6-8 weeks to go, so you don't have to do increases while you're doing the hardest workouts.
3. Fill in a long run progression. I do this from both ends, so that I can make sure I've got a few 17+ runs before the marathon. I also like to set things up so that my increase in LR is out of phase with my mpw increase, and to work a pattern of easy X, shorter and harder, medium-hard X. E.g. I might run 50mpw with a medium-hard 14m long run, 50mpw with an easy 16, 50 with a hard 14, 56 with a medium-hard 16, 56 with an easy 18, and so on. By 'hard' I mean progression runs, Squiers LRs with surges every mile, MP miles, closer to MP, etc.
4. Fill in quality runs. Hudson has templates for where your quality runs should fall for various weekly volume/# runs. Personally, for the marathon, I only do one quality run per week (not including the LR) - I feel I just can't handle more. (I'm currently training for a half and trying to do two quality runs a week, but it's not going so well.) He also has templates for progression of muscular training to aerobic support for each distance. What works for me, for the marathon, is to begin with strides and short intervals and gradually move to half-mile, then mile repeats, and then tempo runs. About the time I have a tune-up half I should be running 6-mile tempos. Then I move to combinations of HMP and MP running, and finally MP in the final 4-6 weeks. Again, the exact workouts are taken from Hudson's text and sample programs.
5. Run. Everything else I do by the seat of my pants. I try to run a set of hill sprints the day before my quality run; I try to run trails 2-3x/week. I try to have a block of 2-3 consecutive midweek runs around 9-12 miles each. If I'm running on pavement and it's not a quality or long run, and I'm not tired out, I throw in strides. I run whatever I need to make, more or less, my mpw goal for that week.
I'll add that my easy pace and 10K are about the same as yours, and I averaged about 63mpw leading up to my 3:23 PR. For me the key was holding a consistent mpw, and doing longish tempos and hard LRs of up to 19 miles.
Then key for me was MP runs. I built up to 15 miles at MP 4 weeks out add nailed it. The week I was doing a MP run, I would do my long run on trails at a relaxed pace. I would not have been about to pull off the MP runs without a big base, 60 MPW average and lots of speed work, usually 2 times a week including track workouts, mile repeats tempo, hill repeats. You can get faster by just increasing base but the best way to get faster is to...run fast.
Thanks people, lots of good info here.
I got Pfitz's book ordered and looks like I'll order Hudson's too as I like the idea of setting up my own plan with the flexibility to move easy runs around to fit the weather.