Trailer Trash

1

How slow do you run? (Difference training to racing) (Read 75 times)

Chnaiur


    I'm finally coming off my AT injury. I believe the main cause for the injury was that I was running at too high intensity too often. I was pretty much pushing for personal bests every week. (Crazy I know, but I felt sooo strong...).

     

    These days, I'm limiting myself to one fast run per month, and will focus on building a solid base for another year or so.

     

    How are you training in this aspect? I.e. how large is the gap between your training and racing paces? For me, the gap is about 1.5 min/mile. Does that sound reasonable? It feels slow, but to my surprise, my fast runs keep improving.  . 

    3/8 Way Too Cool 50k WNS

    4/19 Tehama Wildflowers 50k

     

    XtremeTaper


      In my road running days (well I ran trails then too, just not ultras) I based most of my training around my marathon pace. I probably ran too fast as well, but typically ran 7:45-8:45 pace on the roads on a normal day. I was around 7:10-7:20 marathon pace. The faster road days were obviously the good days when the runs just sort of flowed.

       

      Trails, well I don't really have a measuring stick there as the terrain is such a big factor. I can say that a normal day on many of my local trails is 10-12 min pace, sometimes slower, rarely faster anymore. There are other trails where this average is slower. If it helps, back in the days I was tracking marathon pace these same trails 9-10 minute pace was the norm. Today that would be a tempo effort.

       

      I've read often enough though that 90 seconds is sort of the gold standard for easy days so you are pretty much on track.

      Life is uncertain. Don't sip.

        ...Trails, well I don't really have a measuring stick there as the terrain is such a big factor....

         

        That's what I was about to say. I can run a 10k on paved bike paths (without snow or ice or wind) faster than I can race a 10k on any trail course that I've done. Something about rocks, hills, mud, roots slowing me down.

         

        Any comparisons depend on the course.

        "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
        AT-runner


          Mixing up your weekly speed is very important to keeping healthy.  Its easier to check your speed on the road where you can mix in speed work / tempo runs / long slow runs / recovery runs / etc.  For the trails, I use effort (compared to the road) as an indicator of what type of run I'm doing.  I ran 12 very hilly miles today, but took it easy so that it felt like an easy run and not a tempo run.

           

          One thing to keep in mind is it's not just what you do each week that matters, you also have to look at the last 7 days.  If you do speed work on a Thursday one week and the next week do it on a Monday, that's 2 speed sessions in 5 days and can in some people lead to injury.

            Lol. This question got a chuckle out of me. Like Xtreme Taper and AKTrail pace really depends.

             

            Most recent 5k road pace: 7:57

            50k with 7000ft gain pace: 14:40

            current easy trail pace: 12 to 15

            recent 5 mile tempo pace: 10:15

             

            When I run I don't pay attention to pace, just effort.

             

            MTA: I have just started adding in some faster runs like tempos, intervals and fast hill repeats. This slows my easy runs down. I use my warm-up to judge if the workout I want to do that day is going to happen. Some days I'll be ready to go after a mile or 2. Some days it takes 3 or 4 miles before I feel good (these end up as easy days) and if I don't feel good after 4 miles or so I'll bag the run (if possible) or take it really easy.

            Mt Cheaha 50k 2/23/2013:  7:34 :D

            Lake Martin 50; 27 miles: 5:29:07

            Run For Kids 50k, Birmingham, 5/4/2013: 6:26:33 Woot!

            Chnaiur


              Thanks everyone for your responses, they are very helpful.

               

              I don't think I was clear, but obviously you can only compare like-to-like on trails. I repeat the same 10-15 mile trails often enough that I know what a best effort is, so that is what I'm comparing my current snail pace to.

              3/8 Way Too Cool 50k WNS

              4/19 Tehama Wildflowers 50k

               

                If you have a heart rate monitor you could compare paces on the same trail with the same heart rate. It can be neat to watch your pace increasing for the same heart rate over time. And it gives you something other than past best efforts to use for comparison purposes.

                Mt Cheaha 50k 2/23/2013:  7:34 :D

                Lake Martin 50; 27 miles: 5:29:07

                Run For Kids 50k, Birmingham, 5/4/2013: 6:26:33 Woot!

                FTYC


                Faster Than Your Couch!

                  Unless I force myself to vary the speed, I'd go the same pace on the same trails/roads all the time. Good thing there are hundreds of miles of trail in my area, and many trees as fartlek markers.

                   

                  On the road, there's not much race day magic for me, my race pace is maybe 30 sec faster on HM distance than my tempo training pace, if at all. Just recently, I effortlessly ran the 13 miles 12 minutes faster than my current "official" PR for a HM (which I set in early December).

                   

                  On the trails, I seem to catch much more of race day excitement and adrenaline rush. My race pace can be about 1 minute faster over 20-30 miles than my training pace.

                   

                  I don't do many slow runs (on purpose not at all, and if I do them, it's my running buddy dictating the pace), just because it is so hard for me to go slow. I get in pain everywhere, and just have the desire to speed up to make it better. It is really tough for me to maintain a slow pace (and I'm not a fast runner to begin with). With buddy, I run 1-2 min/mile slower than my usual pace, and 1.5-2.5 min/mile slower than race pace.

                  After 10 miles or so, I am usually hurting everywhere and quite grumpy, but I stick it out, for the sake of our running relationship, and for the sake of doing "the training" (what training?) according to (a non-existent) plan.

                  Run for fun.

                  Chnaiur


                    Ha - FTYC - I was like you until I got injured :-)

                     

                    Lynde: I've owned five heart rate monitors, but I've given up on that. I just keep losing either the watch or the chestband... It has been neat for the short periods I managed to hold on to them though.

                    3/8 Way Too Cool 50k WNS

                    4/19 Tehama Wildflowers 50k

                     

                      Thanks everyone for your responses, they are very helpful.

                       

                      I don't think I was clear, but obviously you can only compare like-to-like on trails. I repeat the same 10-15 mile trails often enough that I know what a best effort is, so that is what I'm comparing my current snail pace to.

                      I don't race on the same trails I train on, but I do have one loop (1-mi) that I run a fair amount on and make it a lap. My slowest may be around 30min (on snowshoes in fresh snow breaking trail) and fastest on a good day with no footing issues may be around 14: xx (yes, old and slow).

                       

                      My markers for progress over the years have been from being able to run those rolling hill trails in that system (from run/walk) (70-80% HRmax) to being able to run them hard (85-90% HRmax, at least on the uphill parts) on appropriate days. Actually, those are the same efforts on relatively flat, wider trails compared to single track on rolling hills. (On our "big" hills, I can't do those "easy" cuz of 30% slope.)

                       

                      For a recent 11-mi race compared with a 13-mi long run on similar packed snow, frozen swamp terrain, I was actually a little faster on my long run with lower HR, but possibly related to carrying a pack in race (expecting to be out for 4hr)  but not on training run.

                       

                      Things are metamorphosing into ice now.

                      "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
                      Watoni


                        I need to train more so that I need more easy days. The less you train the more intensity you need to some degree ...

                         

                        I am going to just run for fun more often.

                         

                        In terms of pacing, I tend to use times on loops, Strava segments, and GAP (graded average pace) from the software to judge if I did a good job pacing.

                         

                        For example, from yesterday's run, this is the Miwok climb segment:

                         

                        Segment Details

                        Distance 1.2<abbr>mi</abbr>
                        Avg Grade 9.8<abbr>%</abbr>
                        Elev Difference 633<abbr>ft</abbr>
                        Elev Gain 733<abbr>ft</abbr>
                         
                        Elapsed Time 00:11:41
                        Resting Time 00:00:00
                        Average Speed 9:38<abbr>/mi</abbr>
                        VAM 991

                         

                        That was a fairly hard but not puke-inducing effort (I let the real fast folks go). I can also compare all my times for that segment on Strava.

                         

                        Here are the miles with elevation and a normalized pace (lots of regroups) -- the third column is the "normalized" pace, the right column is the actual. Elevation is a bit misleading since it is just the high point versus the low for that mile, so ups and downs are not added.

                         

                         

                        Mile 1 285<abbr>ft</abbr> 7:40

                        13:08

                        Mile 2 -138<abbr>ft</abbr> 8:47

                        9:49

                        Mile 3 -364<abbr>ft</abbr> 9:58

                        7:46

                        Mile 4 5<abbr>ft</abbr> 7:47

                        9:01

                        Mile 5 505<abbr>ft</abbr> 5:51

                        9:34

                        Mile 6 -306<abbr>ft</abbr> 10:16

                        8:22

                        Mile 7 115<abbr>ft</abbr> 7:19

                        8:59

                        Mile 8 420<abbr>ft</abbr> 6:10

                        9:23

                        Mile 9 -27<abbr>ft</abbr> 7:41

                        8:14

                        Mile 10 -43<abbr>ft</abbr> 7:47

                        7:47

                        Mile 11 -266<abbr>ft</abbr> 9:00

                        8:36

                        0.50 mi -320<abbr>ft</abbr> 13:36

                        8:30

                        ilanarama


                        Hi, Mom!

                          Both in road and in trail running I run much, much slower when I'm not racing.  Unlike FTYC I love running slowly!  I've just started trail running again this year (I don't do it in the winter because of the snow and mud) but last fall my training pace for trails was 11:25 (varying between perhaps 10:40 and 12:00 depending on distance and terrain - it's all very hilly and rocky but some trails are tougher than others) and my pace in the 25K on the same trails I trained on was 10 minutes flat; my pace in a trail 5K was 9:19.  I could have run the 25K a little faster had I not been holding back a tad as it was the first day of a two-day race, but I don't think I could have been much faster.

                          Ilana is awesome. She lives in a cool place, drinks good beer, and runs hard. She should start a fucking lifestyle blog for chicks. - NC Runner

                           

                          PRs: 5K 21:03 (4/2012) 10K 43:06 (12/2011) 13.1 1:35:55 (10/2013) 26.2 3:23:31 (12/2013)

                          Next up: Imogene Pass Run 9/6| bloggy stuff at http://ilanarama.dreamwidth.org

                          FTYC


                          Faster Than Your Couch!

                            Chnaiur: What happened? And what did you change then?

                            Run for fun.