First, a little background. I haven't been running long--dabbled in run/walking on street and trails last year, got injured on a slick mud trail in the fall, started back early this spring, became consistent in about May, more serious in August.
My first trail race came about 3 weeks after I started running again, and my time was horrible--14:46mm for 4.3 miles. Then I began training more through the summer, started 4x a week instead of 3x, and ran my second trail race, same distance coincidentally, at a 12:23 pace. Great improvement, even if the pace was still horrible, but the thing is, I usually run 11-11:30 for my easy runs, even on trails. My road 5K from last year when I had logged a whopping 50 miles of run/walk was at a 10:09 pace.
Any idea why I'm running so much slower in the race and what I can do about it? I have another longer trail race I want to do in the spring, 6.5 miles. First of all I'll need to get my mileage up to where I can handle that distance, but I also have to figure out why my race times are worse than my daily mileage times.
Can any of you amazing trail runners help me?
under a rock
Welcome to the wonderful world of trail racing! It's a different beast than road running.
Are you starting out too fast? Let the others pass you until you are in a rhythm then start making your moves to pass others.
How do your trails compare to the trails at your races? I have some trails that I train on that a 13:00mm is great and others where 10:00mm is great.
Are you wasting energy trying to run up hills?
Being too cautious on downhill? One tip for down hill I can give you is to have very quick steps. I picture the hill as the tires on an obsticle course, your body stays in the middle of the trail and your feet quickly pick their way down the hill. I always say the longer your foot stays on the ground the more time you waste and the more chance of slipping or tripping.
Actually, I think I may be starting out too slowly. It's like I'm afraid I won't have anything in me for the end, so I just plod along slower than my usual pace, and then when we get to the uphills, I'm stuck walking in a line of slow people to the top.
And yeah, about that walking up hills. Seriously? Even if the race is a piddly 4-6 miler?
The trails I train on and race on are similar, not too technical, a few hills sprinkled in the miles. I'll be able to train on the trail for the race in April, so that should help a lot. And if the race is 6.5 miles, how long should my long runs be? Both times I've raced before I had only run slightly over the distance of the race, and that may have contributed to the not knowing how much I could push myself during the race itself.
Thanks for the advice on the downhills. Maybe if I think of myself as a mountain goat, I'll get the right idea for running them.
Do the people here only run trails (how lovely THAT would be) or do they (as I do) run pavement as well just to be able to get in decent weekly mileage?
Hi Jennifer - First - 7 kids? This insanity will do you well in trail running.
Second - As Ashley said, how different are the trails for the races compared to what you are training on? If the race is on hillier terrain, you times will definitely be slower. Are you getting caught up in the excitement of the race and going out too fast? Position yourself at the back of the pack and run your race.
Since you are still in the "comeback" stage, focus less on speed and more on continuing to build your endurance and mileage, keeping your form strong, working on your hill climbing and descending. Running too much too fast can be just as detrimental as running too little. It will all start to click again, you just need to be patieint. Patience is a virtue with running, and seemingly even more so with trail running.
FWIW - (1) I've been running trails for over 5 years now and it still takes me an hour (give or take) to run 5 miles (I'm a turtle), and (2) your training should include strength and core training, plus a separate cardio workout once a week, which will give your body a rest from running.
Also FYI - We have monthly thread if you'd like to post there whenever - Dirty Trail Runners Monthly (currently the November issue).
Leslie Living and Running Behind the Redwood Curtain -------------
Trail Runner Nation
Sally McCrae-Choose Strong
Bare Performance
Actually, I think I may be starting out too slowly. It's like I'm afraid I won't have anything in me for the end, so I just plod along slower than my usual pace, and then when we get to the uphills, I'm stuck walking in a line of slow people to the top. And yeah, about that walking up hills. Seriously? Even if the race is a piddly 4-6 miler? The trails I train on and race on are similar, not too technical, a few hills sprinkled in the miles. I'll be able to train on the trail for the race in April, so that should help a lot. And if the race is 6.5 miles, how long should my long runs be? Both times I've raced before I had only run slightly over the distance of the race, and that may have contributed to the not knowing how much I could push myself during the race itself. Thanks for the advice on the downhills. Maybe if I think of myself as a mountain goat, I'll get the right idea for running them. Do the people here only run trails (how lovely THAT would be) or do they (as I do) run pavement as well just to be able to get in decent weekly mileage?
When it's warm outside I do walk the longer and steeper hills even in short races. The only trail races where I haven't walked a hill was in a 5k in march and an 8k in Feb. The 8k I was fit enough for a half marathon so running all the hills in an 8k was easy as pie. I find that even when I walk hills and get passed by others running that I will pass them on the other side of the hill with no problem. If your legs are worn out from running up the hill they won't have the strength to survive the blast down the hill. Then when I hit the flat my lungs are in good shape to push on unlike my counter parts that ran up the hill and ginger footed down the hill.
I run a combo of trails and roads. At least 75% of my training is trails because I just can't tolerate roads unless I absolutely have to, they just bore me to death.
Oh, and wow on the 7 kids! One of my trail buddies has 7 as well. I love hearing her stories. I only have one so I'm amazed at her skills. I always use her as an example of why women can't use having kids as an excuse for not taking care of themselves.
I find that even when I walk hills and get passed by others running that I will pass them on the other side of the hill with no problem.
Exactly. Depending on the length and grade, I power walk hills or do a 20/20 (or variation thereof) combo - 20 steps walking/20 steps running - even on a piddly 4-6 milers. Whether running or walking, keep your steps short and quick - baby steps. Taking too large of steps uses too much energy and will waste your quads faster.
The other thing you might consider is training by heart rate. There's a great thread here at RA that's all about training at heart rate. It would require purchasing an HR monitor, but you could get lots of questioned answered here. It's made a big difference in my training.
And yes, I run pavement during the week, trails on Saturdays, and either trails or pavement on Sundays, depending on what I have going on. Just read an great article in UltraRunning Magazine about the combo of trail running and road running. If you're interested, email me at fatozzig at yahoo dot com and I'll send it to you.
I run slower on trails than on the road...always. Some trails can really impact your pace. Its ok. Enjoy the run/race.
On getting boxed in: This has happened to me as well when not in shape. If you start too slow, you will end up in the herd and have to work to pass people to get to the pace you are accustomed to running. You probably won't get there (to that pace) because it becomes very easy to slip into the pace of the people in front of you. This makes the run more relaxing and perhaps more fun but of course does nothing for your time.
Remedy: Get in better shape, don't worry about it right now.
I'm not a big fan of walking the hills. Playing devil's advocate here but I like to run up the hills albeit slowly. I just chug chug chug and let the heart rate soar. There is just something amazing about cresting a hill when you've worked for it hard! For a very long race -- ultras and stuff walking the uphills must be in order, but I haven't done one so can't advise there. Downhills require a mindset of being a daredevil. Just go for it.
Trails vary widely. Your usual 5K trail may not be an equivalent 5K in a trail race. The race may be a) hillier b) gnarlyer (is that a word?) c) longer.
For a 6+ mile trail race I would be running at least 8-10 mile long run if you want a good time. Build your mileage and endurance base.
I do both roads and trails, hills and flat. I've found that if I mix it up, my body likes it better than doing only trails or only roads. Plus on the roads you can work on your speed more precisely.
Ok, so much for my advice. Hopefully it gives you a few new ideas.
World's worst trail runner here. Well, that's what I call myself at least.
My number one issue is that I can't run down trail hills worth a damn. I'm slow.
But my second biggest problem is not going out too slowly. The opposite. Going out WAY too fast. I'm used to pacing on roads and it is harder for me to get a feel on trails. Especially for a trail race with a lot of uphill early on... I will plow through them and then be yuck for the rest of the race.
Full disclosure: I'm talking about marathons, 50ks, and 50 milers mostly. That said, I had a similar problem in a trail half marathon over the summer. Thought I could get away with torching the start because it was a "short" race for me. Nope.
On getting boxed in: This has happened to me as well when not in shape. If you start too slow, you will end up in the herd and have to work to pass people to get to the pace you are accustomed to running. You probably won't get there (to that pace) because it becomes very easy to slip into the pace of the people in front of you. This makes the run more relaxing and perhaps more fun but of course does nothing for your time. Remedy: Get in better shape, don't worry about it right now. I'm not a big fan of walking the hills. Playing devil's advocate here but I like to run up the hills albeit slowly. I just chug chug chug and let the heart rate soar. There is just something amazing about cresting a hill when you've worked for it hard! For a very long race -- ultras and stuff walking the uphills must be in order, but I haven't done one so can't advise there. Downhills require a mindset of being a daredevil. Just go for it. Trails vary widely. Your usual 5K trail may not be an equivalent 5K in a trail race. The race may be a) hillier b) gnarlyer (is that a word?) c) longer. For a 6+ mile trail race I would be running at least 8-10 mile long run if you want a good time. Build your mileage and endurance base. I do both roads and trails, hills and flat. I've found that if I mix it up, my body likes it better than doing only trails or only roads. Plus on the roads you can work on your speed more precisely. Ok, so much for my advice. Hopefully it gives you a few new ideas.
Your description of getting boxed in perfectly fit the bill. I hadn't run a race in 6 months, was overjoyed to be in the company of 200 adults, made a friend at the starting line and just chatted through the beginning... but when I realized I could afford to kick it up a notch, I was "in the herd" with no easy way to pass. Next time I'll know better, AND I'll be in better shape.
Vanity speaking here, but when I ran that pathetic 14ish minute mile trail race in April 2010, my husband and seven children were waiting for me at the end. That was totally cool...well, seven children is not so common, and one cute 20-something girl who had run the race in about half my time came up to me and complimented me on just being there. I was 9 out of 12 in my age group, and I think I came in about the same time as a 64 year old man. Yeah, I chatted with him a bit, too. Maybe running my mouth more than my feet is not such a great plan. Anyway, I want to show significant improvement come April 2011... the trail should be much easier, but the people will mostly be the same.
"If I want a good time" That made me laugh. I'm still working on the mileage and endurance thing, but with almost 6 months to the race I am on the right track trail.
SRL: Dude, I'm going to start calling you Visa! ... is there any place on RA to hide from you? I hope to race a trail half one day, but I am nowhere near ready for it yet.
Visa? The who in the what now?
I'm very easy to get away from, really. I don't go into what's known as 'the swamp' (the 2000 mile group). I also don't go into the ladies only area because, well, I don't have the proper equipment.
I post a lot in the main area and the ultra group. I sometimes lurk/browse this group, but I don't post much. That's about it.
I'm disappointed, SRL. I thought you were the king of obscure, random comments. "Visa... It's everywhere you want to be". And I don't go in the swamp, either, because I don't run 2K miles a year, and when I lurked there once I got weird vibes.
Back on topic, I think I'm going to check out the trail for the race next week. Then maybe y'all can help me come up with a plan of attack... for a race 5 months out. How pathetic my social life must be!
I'm still trying to figure out trail running technique also so I don't have much to add about that. I think if you're getting boxed in it may really slow you down. I find I work harder if I'm following closely behind someone. It's harder to pay attention to obstacles and feel the trail. If you're feeling good then don't be afraid to pass people. I've found most trail runners are very nice about yielding the path or moving over a bit to let you go by. It's a lot easier to run your own pace on an open trail.
You shouldn't get too hung up on comparing times. If you're trying to gauge your performance then look at overall and age group placing relative to your road races. My guess is that they will be very similar.
Most of my training is on roads. I'd like to run on trails more often but the weekends are the only times I can get to any.
World's worst trail runner here. Well, that's what I call myself at least. My number one issue is that I can't run down trail hills worth a damn. I'm slow. But my second biggest problem is not going out too slowly. The opposite. Going out WAY too fast. I'm used to pacing on roads and it is harder for me to get a feel on trails. Especially for a trail race with a lot of uphill early on... I will plow through them and then be yuck for the rest of the race. Full disclosure: I'm talking about marathons, 50ks, and 50 milers mostly. That said, I had a similar problem in a trail half marathon over the summer. Thought I could get away with torching the start because it was a "short" race for me. Nope.
I also get rocked on downhills, especially in Jersey where trails can be a bit rocky. Rocked, rockey. Heh.
All the best to you Jennifer. Keep us posted.
"If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus
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I suspect walking may be more efficient than running uphills, esp steep ones. You get to save some muscles used more in running and burn some used more in walking. In training I often run the uphills deliberately, even if I suspect it is less efficient, because I want to train the running uphill muscles.
In cross-country races, it's very common to run the start fast, to try to get better position before hitting single track (where it can be hard to pass).
Also, I think "good times", "bad times", and "pathetic times" are all relative to each person. One person's "pathetic time" might be another person's "good time", and vice-versa.
Admittedly, at the elite level, we can maybe have more objective agreement that -- and here I'm guessing -- 13:55 is a good 5K time for a guy (and 14:20 is a good time for a gal) -- but I suspect few of us are at that level.
It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.