Trail Runners

1

for Those Who Use the 5-1 Run/Walk Ratio (Read 239 times)


Cat in a Pot

    Disregarding hills (since I walk all of them): 1. How strict are you about adhering to this? 2. Do you let terrain dictate at all, i.e., if you're on a nice, easy downhill and it's time to walk for a minute, do you go ahead and finish the hill then change to the walk? 3. Do you do all of your training runs with the 5/1? I'm going to be participating in my first 50k next month. I think instituting this will be a big help. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

    Leslie
    Living and Running Behind the Redwood Curtain
    -------------

    2014: May - MDW 70-Miles (w/Trail Factor 50k) - Cascade Crest, WA/Astoria, OR/Portland, OR

    June 7 - Grasshopper Peak Redwoods Run 30k - Humboldt Redwoods State Park, CA

    July 12 - Mt. Hood 50 - Mt. Hood, OR

    Oct 11 - Firetrails 50 - Lake Chabot, CA


    "The farther you go outside, the farther you go inside." (Unknown)
    Ultrarunnerpodcast

    Trail Runner Nation

    Fatozzig's Place

    TrailSurfer


    Husband and father of 4

      I haven't heard of this 5:1 ratio thing would you share the theory. Is it intended help with recovery and staying power in ultras mostly or is it more like the low heartrate training?
      Find the fun.


      Cat in a Pot

        It's for staying power, to get you through the ultras. I don't do heart rate training. I've read many reports/ comments by ultra runners who incorporate this. I think this may be the only way I get through my 50k next month. I tried it this past weekend for my 2.5 hour trail run, and it felt pretty good. I was able to eat little bits during the 1 min walk, which is a problem for me - getting enough nutrition in during the runs. Hopefully, we'll get some feedback.

        Leslie
        Living and Running Behind the Redwood Curtain
        -------------

        2014: May - MDW 70-Miles (w/Trail Factor 50k) - Cascade Crest, WA/Astoria, OR/Portland, OR

        June 7 - Grasshopper Peak Redwoods Run 30k - Humboldt Redwoods State Park, CA

        July 12 - Mt. Hood 50 - Mt. Hood, OR

        Oct 11 - Firetrails 50 - Lake Chabot, CA


        "The farther you go outside, the farther you go inside." (Unknown)
        Ultrarunnerpodcast

        Trail Runner Nation

        Fatozzig's Place

        TrailSurfer


        Husband and father of 4

          Thanks for the explaination. Smile Ironically, I was reading some material on middle distance and distance swimming tonight. I pointed out training for general endurance (base) and specific endurance and the use of the body's different energy systems. It struck me that when we switch to a walk we use some slightly different muscules, and we may utilize a different source of energy. This might be the case also when going down hill. If that is the case, then why not start your 5 minutes each time you stop walking and don't count downhill. Undecided I know nothing... Just theorizing. You got me thinking. I appreciate that and look forward to hearing from someone with more experience.
          Find the fun.


          Cat in a Pot

            Thanks for the explaination. Smile If that is the case, then why not start your 5 minutes each time you stop walking and don't count downhill. Undecided
            Even though you're only theorizing, I'm not sure I'm understanding this statement, but I'll give it a shot: From responses I received on kickrunners, the people who use a 5/1 ratio (or in many of their cases an 8/2 ratio) let the terrain dictate somewhat. Meaning, you wouldn't use the ratio when power walking up a hill or traversing the downhills. The ratio comes into play on more or less "flat" terrain. I always power walk hills. My friend does a slow running zig zag approach for portions of hills, but she's not getting up them any faster than I am power walking,and I think she's expending more energy. The downhills are where you can make up time, and you should always try to utilize them to your advantage. Also, utilizing a ratio gives you a chance to get some calories in when you're walking, which is a big problem for me. I forget to eat, or think I'll do it "around the next bend," "at the next hill," etc. By that time, it ends up being too late, or I forget . . . . Roll eyes

            Leslie
            Living and Running Behind the Redwood Curtain
            -------------

            2014: May - MDW 70-Miles (w/Trail Factor 50k) - Cascade Crest, WA/Astoria, OR/Portland, OR

            June 7 - Grasshopper Peak Redwoods Run 30k - Humboldt Redwoods State Park, CA

            July 12 - Mt. Hood 50 - Mt. Hood, OR

            Oct 11 - Firetrails 50 - Lake Chabot, CA


            "The farther you go outside, the farther you go inside." (Unknown)
            Ultrarunnerpodcast

            Trail Runner Nation

            Fatozzig's Place

            TrailSurfer


            Husband and father of 4

              Thanks I understand a little better now. Smile Now if someone other than me would jump in to comment. In a couple years I'll be considering an ultra and this might be useful info. Undecided
              Find the fun.


              Cat in a Pot

                See if you can get through on this link to kickrunners: http://www.kickrunners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27054 I asked the same question over there and have received some very helpful information. They have a strong trail running community on that site. A lot of former Coolrunning folks migrated to kickrunners.

                Leslie
                Living and Running Behind the Redwood Curtain
                -------------

                2014: May - MDW 70-Miles (w/Trail Factor 50k) - Cascade Crest, WA/Astoria, OR/Portland, OR

                June 7 - Grasshopper Peak Redwoods Run 30k - Humboldt Redwoods State Park, CA

                July 12 - Mt. Hood 50 - Mt. Hood, OR

                Oct 11 - Firetrails 50 - Lake Chabot, CA


                "The farther you go outside, the farther you go inside." (Unknown)
                Ultrarunnerpodcast

                Trail Runner Nation

                Fatozzig's Place


                Ultrachick

                  OK, Leslie and Trail sounds like you may need a little help. I, myself don't use the walk/run ratio you were asking about. I do power walk/speed hike the hills and run the flats and downhills. I also train by heart rate. You do use different energy systems depending upon how high your heart rate is and amount of time. I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible-but say you had a VO2 test done and the results showed 5 heart rate zones which is pretty typical. Zones 1 and 2 are recovery and easy zones where you burn mostly fat for fuel compared to carbs because you are able to get enough oxygen to the muscles. You need to be aerobic (with oxygen) to burn fat. Zone 3 is the gray area where your body isn't sure which to burn more of carbs or fat for fuel and this is where most people train. Zones 4 and 5 your body burns mostly carbs for fuel because you're working really hard and can't get enough oxygen to your muscles and carbs don't need oxygen to be burned (you're anaerobic). I've been training this way for the past 3 years and have seen significant improvement in my running speed compared to how hard I have to work to achieve it. If you don't have a VO2 test done then the Maffetone formula works well-Google it and it's easy to find. Going back to your original question Leslie, I would let the terrain dictate where you power walk and run. If you find yourself on a long flat section then use the ratio you were talking about. Since you are just beginning with these crazy races you have to do what works for you and as you get into better shape cardiovascularly I bet the ratio will change over time where you run more and walk less. Hope this helps! Kelly
                  If you never go fast, you'll never go fast.
                    Hey Kelly, how do you gel what you said in your post with the quote at the bottom of your post? How much and when do you go fast? Do you train at low heart rates? Like what?
                    "Run slowly, run daily, drink in moderation, and don't eat like a pig" Dr. Ernst Van Aaken. Sorry ultrasteve.


                    Ultrachick

                      LOL-Good question! Smile It's a mix of easy days and speed work. The big picture looks like this: my race season is from April to November (more or less); I base train for part of November, December, January where I keep my HR at the high end of Zone 2 or lower-walking as necessary depending on the terrain etc. Usuallly, I'll start building for a spring/early summer marathon in February and will try to do at least one type of speed workout per week-usually intervals of some sort. I hate speed workouts. All my other runs are at base HR which I determine by seeing friend of mine who does VO2 testing as a side business to his day job. Currently my base rate is 150bpm. When I started 3 years ago it was 142. At 142 bpm I was slowed down to an 11:00-11:30 min/mile-lots of walking! After about 3 months at 142 I was up to a 10:30 +/- min/mile. This is where your body is increasing its capillary network to get oxygen to your muscles, your stroke volume goes up and your body is becoming more effecient at burning fat for a fuel along with a bunch of other physiological adaptations. On a flat treadmill I can run at 8:57 min/mile pace for about 2-3 miles and keep my HR at or below 150 which being a numbers geek is exciting. So do you see how I've become more efficient and faster with less work? Back to the big picture, from May to November I work on building up the miles to whatever race I really want to do well at with other races along the way as stepping stones. I try to do hill repeats, there's a 5K trail series every Tuesday night during the summer that I race in and use as speed work. Otherwise, I'm always going slow and after any big race the next week is strictly base to recover. Once I'm done racing then I start thinking about being tested again to know where my new base rate is. Last year, it was 147 and I didn't get tested until January but had randomly chosen 150 to train at until I was tested and happened to dead on. I feel I'm in tune enough with my body now I don't always need to look at my watch. It's still a big learning process for me-it was touched on a little bit at the coaching clinic I was at recently and explaining it to other people is a major accomplishment. Big grin My friend who does the testing has the best analogy for this: think of it as a window- what's the easiest way to open one? The bottom of the window is zones 1-2, the glass is zone 3 and the top is zones 4-5. Most people train in zone 3-is that a good way to open the window by pushing on the glass? or to lift from the top in zones 4-5? From the bottom is the best way. Jack gave me that quote to get my butt moving with speed work-a gentle reminder of sorts. Feel free to ask more questions and I'll do my best to answer them or give you some good resources. My friend recommends the Maffetone formula if you choose not to get tested. I like being tested because it takes the guess work out of it. Kelly
                      If you never go fast, you'll never go fast.
                        Yeah, I ask because I've read the Maffetone, Mittleman, and Hadd stuff and tried applying it last year but not for an extended period of time (11 weeks) and wasn't thrilled with it. I've seen other people get good results training differently so I'm always asking around and trying to figure this stuff out. I come from a powerlifting background and this running stuff is a whole new area of knowledge. I can talk about power, but not about the physiology of endurance too much, or, actually, how to train for it. I ocassionally pop onto the low heart training forum and read their stuff. I'm convinced it works, but I just have to put in a significant amount of time there at the low heart rates, which is quite frustrating. I'm not the most patient person. Currently I'm just running, trying to keep hr below 150, and more around 140-145 most of the time. My MAF number is 142 so that's pretty close. Just trying to add distance, drop weight with goal of running more comfortably for a long time. By the way, how sweet is that that you have a friend who can test your VO2 output for free! Very cool.
                        "Run slowly, run daily, drink in moderation, and don't eat like a pig" Dr. Ernst Van Aaken. Sorry ultrasteve.


                        Cat in a Pot

                          Kelly - For the record, I detest speedwork, as well. When Coach Bill puts "6 2-minute sprints" into my schedule, I want to go smack him. Doing speedwork on hills doesn't bother 'cause it's not for as long of a sustained period. My running parnter, Karen, trains by HR, so when we're running trails together, I stick with what's happening with her. It seems we're pretty close. I've toyed with the idea of getting a HR monitor, but it feels like I've already spent enough $$$ for now on running "stuff."

                          Leslie
                          Living and Running Behind the Redwood Curtain
                          -------------

                          2014: May - MDW 70-Miles (w/Trail Factor 50k) - Cascade Crest, WA/Astoria, OR/Portland, OR

                          June 7 - Grasshopper Peak Redwoods Run 30k - Humboldt Redwoods State Park, CA

                          July 12 - Mt. Hood 50 - Mt. Hood, OR

                          Oct 11 - Firetrails 50 - Lake Chabot, CA


                          "The farther you go outside, the farther you go inside." (Unknown)
                          Ultrarunnerpodcast

                          Trail Runner Nation

                          Fatozzig's Place

                          TrailSurfer


                          Husband and father of 4

                            Kelly, Buddo and fatozzig thanks for the info. I only just recently heard about this stuff. I'm always interested in learning something new.
                            Find the fun.
                              I'll put in my two cents here for what it's worth. It's not as scientific as Kelly's training but it seems to work for me. Although a long-term injury is preventing me for training hard at this time I have experimented with run/walk splits. I don't like the 5/1 split very much. One minute is not enough time to lower my heart and breathing rate so I don't feel recovered when it time to start running again. It's also not enough time for me to eat and drink as I prefer to do these while walking. The 15/3 split resolves the eating and drinking issue and allows enough time for my heart rate and breathing to come back to normal. The only problem I have with it is that I have a harder time making the transition back to running after walking for 3 minutes. I have settled on a 10/2 or 8/2 split which is a good compromise for me. Dan My Blog http://breakhearttrailrunning.blogspot.com/
                              Only the lead dog has a different view. My Blog http://breakhearttrailrunning.blogspot.com/