Sub-4 Marathon Group

February 2013 (Read 58 times)


Smashy!!!

    CMB, did you explain to the doc that you can't run on it? That it's hurt so bad that you had to take time off? Does he know that you have been foam rolling, etc., and that it's not improving your condition? I dunno, it seems like this doc is underestimating the kind of discomfort you are in. Was it a chiro who was trained in Graston, specifically? I find with doctors, unless I really trust them, I have to over exaggerate my symptoms for them to take it seriously, which is weird, since I'd think their entire job is to take symptoms seriously.

    PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)


    Trail Monster

      What's the point of picking a GMP before you train? I still have no idea what my target is for Shamrock and its 44 days away. I'll review my training log, talk it over with my coach, post about it here, and basically agonize over it my whole taper. That's my plan anyway. I'm just training to what my coach and McMillan predict I'm capable of and assuming I will have a better idea what I can do after the 20 mile race on 2/23.

      2013 races:

      3/17 Shamrock Marathon

      4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

      7/27 Burning RIver 100M

      8/24 Baker 50M

      10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

       

      My Blog

       

      Brands I Heart:

      FitFluential

      INKnBURN

      Altra Zero Drop

      onemile


        Damaris - It feels "that hard" now but at the same time I know I can handle it for the rest of the plan (I never planned on using 8:30 on race day).  So do I get more fitness benefits using the faster pace for training?  My question about how it feels was more so I get an idea as I experiment of what the right pace is.

         

         

        Banshee - I'm glad you are going for your McMillian paces and getting some confidence Smile

         

         

        Simon - nice job on the weight loss!

         

        cmb - hope it settles down but if not, go back and DEMAND graston Smile

         

         

        rollcast - I don't really feel as if I've progressed although my legs have been feeling stronger than when I first started the plan. I have a hard time gauging it without a race though.

         

        indiana - yeah I guess it's the breathing thing. I feel like I shouldn't be breathing as hard as I am for MP. Although last night I did it at the track and if if felt that easy all the time, I wouldn't be doubting it.

         

        cbus - Where did the McMillian plus 12 come from?  I thought the consensus was double HM + 15 if you average over 55 mph for the cycle otherwise double plus 20 minutes.  I'm pretty confident I can run a 9mm marathon but I'd rather err on the more aggressive side.  I never really believed I could actually run the marathon at 8:30 pace - I asked the question more to get a feel for what MP should feel like when I start experimenting with it.  (My instinct tells me 8:45-8:50 pace)


        Smashy!!!

          Banshee, I dunno. It's the Hansons approach. I guess it's because they think training should prepare you to achieve an definite goal. All I know is I've tried the other approach of doing a tune up half and then basing my goal off of that, and that ended catastrophically. So I'm willing to try the Hansons approach.

          What's the point of picking a GMP before you train? I still have no idea what my target is for Shamrock and its 44 days away. I'll review my training log, talk it over with my coach, post about it here, and basically agonize over it my whole taper. That's my plan anyway. I'm just training to what my coach and McMillan predict I'm capable of and assuming I will have a better idea what I can do after the 20 mile race on 2/23.

          PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

          onemile


            Banshee, I dunno. It's the Hansons approach. I guess it's because they think training should prepare you to achieve an definite goal. All I know is I've tried the other approach of doing a tune up half and then basing my goal off of that, and that ended catastrophically. So I'm willing to try the Hansons approach.

             

            Tell me about this. I'm curious. What pace did you pick based on your tune up half and you went out exactly at that pace and what happened?


            Trail Monster

              Banshee, I dunno. It's the Hansons approach. I guess it's because they think training should prepare you to achieve an definite goal. All I know is I've tried the other approach of doing a tune up half and then basing my goal off of that, and that ended catastrophically. So I'm willing to try the Hansons approach.

               

              Hmmm, my current HM PR lines up almost perfectly with McMillan's predictions. A 2:09 half with a 4:33 marathon. I know I could actually do better than that on the half so I am wavering between 4:15, 4:20, and 4:25 for my Shamrock goals. I'm just waiting to set definite plans until I get a chance to try out different paces at the Spring Thaw 20M.

              2013 races:

              3/17 Shamrock Marathon

              4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

              7/27 Burning RIver 100M

              8/24 Baker 50M

              10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

               

              My Blog

               

              Brands I Heart:

              FitFluential

              INKnBURN

              Altra Zero Drop


              Smashy!!!

                Damaris - It feels "that hard" now but at the same time I know I can handle it for the rest of the plan (I never planned on using 8:30 on race day).  So do I get more fitness benefits using the faster pace for training?  My question about how it feels was more so I get an idea as I experiment of what the right pace is.

                 

                cbus - Where did the McMillian plus 12 come from?  I thought the consensus was double HM + 15 if you average over 55 mph for the cycle otherwise double plus 20 minutes.  I'm pretty confident I can run a 9mm marathon but I'd rather err on the more aggressive side.  I never really believed I could actually run the marathon at 8:30 pace - I asked the question more to get a feel for what MP should feel like when I start experimenting with it.  (My instinct tells me 8:45-8:50 pace)

                 

                I thought McMillan + 12 was brought up, but now that I'm thinking about it, I it might be my own metric. I got it from looking at the half PRs of people in our group, and, when they've had successful marathons, it was usually around McMillan + 12.

                 

                But I guess I feel like you know the answer already. You've stated it many times. But you're also playing mindgames with yourself. As they say in SAT prep, "go with your first instinct." I think 8:45-8:50 is a very reasonable goal, and it would be a totally respectable achievement. My opinion is to lock it in at 8:45-8:50.

                PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

                onemile


                  Oh playing mindgames with myself is what I do best.  Smile

                   

                  The problem I have is that I know I can do the training at 8:30. So in my mind, I feel like I should do the training at the harder pace even though I don't plan to race at that pace.  That I'll get MORE benefit from using the faster paces.   But then I'm not learning efficiency and all at my real MP.

                   

                  And then there's the other part of me that is secretly hoping I am going to get faster and 8:30 will suddenly be the right pace Blush

                   

                   

                  I thought McMillan + 12 was brought up, but now that I'm thinking about it, I it might be my own metric. I got it from looking at the half PRs of people in our group, and, when they've had successful marathons, it was usually around McMillan + 12.

                   

                  But I guess I feel like you know the answer already. You've stated it many times. But you're also playing mindgames with yourself. As they say in SAT prep, "go with your first instinct." I think 8:45-8:50 is a very reasonable goal, and it would be a totally respectable achievement. My opinion is to lock it in at 8:45-8:50.


                  Smashy!!!

                    Well, just for comparison's sake. I'm doing the Half plan right now. I'll be doing up to 7 miles at 8:12 for my Tempos in the near future. Could I bang out 3 more at that pace? Sure. Does that mean I should run 26.2 at that pace? Nope. My point is that there is a range of paces that can feel anywhere from comfortable to hard during training, which doesn't necessarily translate into race pace. Go with your gut, is what I say.

                     

                    Oh playing mindgames with myself is what I do best.  Smile

                     

                    The problem I have is that I know I can do the training at 8:30. So in my mind, I feel like I should do the training at the harder pace even though I don't plan to race at that pace.  That I'll get MORE benefit from using the faster paces.   But then I'm not learning efficiency and all at my real MP.

                     

                    And then there's the other part of me that is secretly hoping I am going to get faster and 8:30 will suddenly be the right pace Blush

                     

                    PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

                    nachosgrande


                      Oh playing mindgames with myself is what I do best.  Smile

                       

                      The problem I have is that I know I can do the training at 8:30. So in my mind, I feel like I should do the training at the harder pace even though I don't plan to race at that pace.  That I'll get MORE benefit from using the faster paces.   But then I'm not learning efficiency and all at my real MP.

                       

                      And then there's the other part of me that is secretly hoping I am going to get faster and 8:30 will suddenly be the right pace Blush

                       

                      Then make 8:30 your training pace and stick with it as long as it's doable.  It sounds like it's in your nature to be aggressive so I say go with it.  You're pretty early into your training plan, right?  My guess is you'll know more about what you can handle five or six weeks from now.  If you're improving and the 8:30 effort is getting easier or staying the same, then you're good to go.  If you're hanging on by a thread, you can always downshift later in the plan.  I ran all of my Pfitz MP runs between 8:08-8:20 per McMillan's 8:18 predicted pace based off a HM prior to training.  I ended up running a very comfortable 8:57 on race day (mostly because of some late injuries and subsequent "bonk" paranoia), a pace I almost never ran at any point during training and it didn't bother me a bit.  Point being, I don't think it's necessary to train at the specific pace you're going to race at.


                      Smashy!!!

                         

                        Tell me about this. I'm curious. What pace did you pick based on your tune up half and you went out exactly at that pace and what happened?

                         

                        I've got my race splits in my training log, so you can find the details there. But basically, I trained with the Run More idea. Ran an 18 mi LR and a 13-16 mi MLR twice a week, with a bunch of other runs thrown in--all of which were easy pace. I ran a 1:46:46 in Aug. before my race, which McMillan says translates into 3:44. I knew that wasn't happening, so I sought the advice of Ilamarama, and she told me 3:50 was a reasonable goal. That meant a 8:47ish pace. I went out slower than that. I ran a few miles too fast on down hills, but I also ran a few miles above that. By mile 13 it was tougher than it should've been. By mile 15 the wheels were off. I finished in 4:30:46.

                         

                        I've got a lot more I could say about that race, and if you're interested I could tell them to you, but basically everything I say on the forums is informed by that experience and the things I took away from it. But basically that's why I don't trust race calculators. I'm more comfortable with my instincts about where my body is at and what it is capable of. I'm also very comfortable with meeting an achievable goal even if it means leaving time on the field because nothing is worse than missing not just your A, B, C goals but also your D-Z goals.

                        PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

                        cmb4314


                          CMB, did you explain to the doc that you can't run on it? That it's hurt so bad that you had to take time off? Does he know that you have been foam rolling, etc., and that it's not improving your condition? I dunno, it seems like this doc is underestimating the kind of discomfort you are in. Was it a chiro who was trained in Graston, specifically? I find with doctors, unless I really trust them, I have to over exaggerate my symptoms for them to take it seriously, which is weird, since I'd think their entire job is to take symptoms seriously.

                           

                          In reality, I probably could have run on it on Wednesday when I took the URD.  It really isn't preventing me from running at this stage of the game, but I recognize the source of the pain, and see where it is headed if I don't take care of it.  It just felt achy and weird by the end of the day on Wednesday, and I made the decision to sit that run out and see if it helped, which it seemed to.  Right now it's more of a nuisance than anything, but because of having ITBS in the past, I'm paranoid that it is going to get worse.

                           

                          I don't know if this dude was specifically trained in Graston, but I picked the practice that I did because they advertised very clearly on their website that they do Graston.  He made some reference to "if it is still bothering you at your followup, there are more aggressive things we can do".  So at least there is that.

                           

                          I was amused though - he confirmed that my anatomy is *completely* working against me and putting undue strain on my IT band.  Knock kneed?  Check.  Flat feet?  Check.  Overpronation?  Check.  Then there is the knee surgery I had 16 years ago, which while a successful repair, may mean that I have slightly reduced stability in that knee.  I did a one legged squat on that leg for him and the response was "Ooh.  That's ugly" Joking

                          My wildly inconsistent PRs:

                          5k: 24:36 (10/20/12)  

                          10k: 52:01 (4/28/12)  

                          HM: 1:50:09 (10/27/12)

                          Marathon: 4:19:11 (10/2/2011) 


                          Smashy!!!

                            Then make 8:30 your training pace and stick with it as long as it's doable.  It sounds like it's in your nature to be aggressive so I say go with it.  You're pretty early into your training plan, right?  My guess is you'll know more about what you can handle five or six weeks from now.  If you're improving and the 8:30 effort is getting easier or staying the same, then you're good to go.  If you're hanging on by a thread, you can always downshift later in the plan.  I ran all of my Pfitz MP runs between 8:08-8:20 per McMillan's 8:18 predicted pace based off a HM prior to training.  I ended up running a very comfortable 8:57 on race day (mostly because of some late injuries and subsequent "bonk" paranoia), a pace I almost never ran at any point during training and it didn't bother me a bit.  Point being, I don't think it's necessary to train at the specific pace you're going to race at.

                            But the Hansons do feel it is necessary, and that is the whole point of their program. It doesn't mean you can't train at paces other than your GMP, but then why do Hansons at all?

                            Additionally, your scenario and Onemile's is completely opposite. You trained faster and the raced slower. She's worried about training too fast, and then bonking in the race. If her approach was to do those Tempos at 8:30, and then race at 8:45, then there'd be no real debate here at all. But then again at that point, why do Hansons or why not just do the Tempos at 8:45 like the Hansons prescribe?

                            PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)


                            Smashy!!!

                              CMB, I had another thought I meant to pass onto you a while ago. Remember when you said sometimes your ITBS hurts more AFTER foam rolling. This happened to me, and I mentioned it to my chiro. He said that there are a ton of nerves around the knee and that sometimes an adhesion can wrap around a nerve or butt up against it. And then you start rolling it, and it rubs on that nerve, which makes it hurt more after. But he also said, unless you get that particular adhesion to release, then it'll keep aggravating that nerve.

                               

                              It makes me wonder if you've got only a few, maybe even just one, adhesion that is wrongly placed so that it's giving your this particular pain. And if you can get to it either by foam rolling, tennis balling, or by Graston, you'd find immediate relief.

                              PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

                              jedigunnie26.2


                              BQ in 2013

                                I'm still doing the HM tune-up approach even with doing Hanson for Philly. My HM falls in at tailend of speed SOS's and feel if I can change goal if HM warrants it before I start Strength where GMP needs to be a little more dialed in.

                                Banshee, I dunno. It's the Hansons approach. I guess it's because they think training should prepare you to achieve an definite goal. All I know is I've tried the other approach of doing a tune up half and then basing my goal off of that, and that ended catastrophically. So I'm willing to try the Hansons approach.

                                PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

                                 

                                2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

                                 

                                2013

                                Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

                                Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

                                Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

                                 

                                Up Next:

                                Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

                                RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

                                Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13