Sub-4 Marathon Group

Hanson & Pfitz Discussion (Read 386 times)

DetroitTigerFan


    Cbus - thanks for the thoughts - the time issue is an interesting one. I would prefer shorter runs as well but that second off day is nice under Pfitz.  Most of my week runs are after work. So, I have to use one of the 2 days off to mow the lawn/grocery shopping so i can run the other days.  The other off day on the weekend is for social activities,etc. I don't know if i could manage running 6 days a week and doing all the other things in life. I have to think on this.  What are your thoughts on the tune up race aspect ?

     

    onemile - interesting thought on moderate marathon pace.  I think i need to do my own pace comparison between the plans (pfitz vs hansons) I know Pfitz does alot by heart rate ranges

     

    docket - i'll try adding a Pfitz 18/70 to the chart above if i have some room in my post so i can keep it all together

    PB's     10K 47:15 (9/13)     HM 1:45 (9/13)     M 3:57 (10/13)

    Running Blog   http://davesdigitaldestinations.blogspot.com/

    jedigunnie26.2


    BQ in 2013

      I lurk in this group from time to time and this thread really caught my interest. Santa brought me the Hanson book and just finished reading it. I'm all in for Hanson for my fall marathon. the plan really makes a lot of sense to me and like the science behind their plan. I'll probably go with advanced plan adding mileage to it on the easy days. As suggested in book might even do LR's every week if you can handle that. LRs lot different than I am used to at a pace faster than I normally run them, but seem like balanced well with the easy day 1-2min pace.

       

      I still might use a plan from their website which is lot different than from the book, but not sure I am up for 80mpw consistently for a 6 week span, I think it is a radical departure from traditional marathon training, but has had lot of success and I am willing to do anything at this point to have a breakthru marathon and get closer to going to Boston.

       

      As far as 5 days vs. 6 days. I made switch couple years back and it's not that big of difference. I run early morning anyway so it's routine like anything else for me.

      PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

       

      2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

       

      2013

      Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

      Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

      Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

       

      Up Next:

      Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

      RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

      Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13


      Smashy!!!

        Jedi, you should stick around this group. Even though many of us are trying to get our first sub-4, some of us are around your speed and with similar goals. Plus some of us wear Mizuno...

        PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

        jedigunnie26.2


        BQ in 2013

          Typing up a post in personal thread as we speak.Smile Luv me some Mizunos.Big grin

           

          Jedi, you should stick around this group. Even though many of us are trying to get our first sub-4, some of us are around your speed and with similar goals. Plus some of us wear Mizuno...

          PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

           

          2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

           

          2013

          Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

          Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

          Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

           

          Up Next:

          Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

          RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

          Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

            Still something I don't understand about the Hansons' plan.  The long run is supposed to be the shorter distance between either 30% of one's weekly mileage, or the distance one can run in three hours.  For a someone who is running 60 mpw and long runs at 10:00 mpm, they both come out to 18 miles.  But if one is only running 11:00 mpm then the long run shouldn't exceed 16.36 miles.  They say that anything over three hours is starting to do more harm than good.

             

            However I was out for my 20 miler one day about a year ago and caught up to a girl who was running around 9:30 mpm, but who was in the first few miles of a 40 mile run.  She was training for an ultra.  I'm sure she wasn't going to cram her 40 miles into three hours.  Do the Hansons suggest that all runners be limited in their training to runs that are less than three hours in length?    If not, what is the difference between the training for an ultra and for a marathon?  Do they suggest that ultra runners not run for more than three consecutive hours?  Something here doesn't make sense to me.

              Cbus Runner

              jedigunnied26.2:

               

              Another Mizuno wearer here.

               

              Currently have Mizuno Wave Universe 3: 1027 miles

              Mizuno Wave Universe 4:   430 miles

              Mizuno Wave Universe 4:   150 miles

               

              All are in rotation.  I have used some Shoe Goo on the 3s, but they are still going strong.


              Smashy!!!

                Still something I don't understand about the Hansons' plan.  The long run is supposed to be the shorter distance between either 30% of one's weekly mileage, or the distance one can run in three hours.  For a someone who is running 60 mpw and long runs at 10:00 mpm, they both come out to 18 miles.  But if one is only running 11:00 mpm then the long run shouldn't exceed 16.36 miles.  They say that anything over three hours is starting to do more harm than good.

                 

                However I was out for my 20 miler one day about a year ago and caught up to a girl who was running around 9:30 mpm, but who was in the first few miles of a 40 mile run.  She was training for an ultra.  I'm sure she wasn't going to cram her 40 miles into three hours.  Do the Hansons suggest that all runners be limited in their training to runs that are less than three hours in length?    If not, what is the difference between the training for an ultra and for a marathon?  Do they suggest that ultra runners not run for more than three consecutive hours?  Something here doesn't make sense to me.

                 

                I don't know what to say about this question, since I know nothing of ultra training. Was that woman running the entire 40 miles @ 9:30 pace? If so, I think the answer is yes, her risk of injury increases exponentially after 3-3:30 hours. Galloway has you walk a lot precisely to lessen the chance of injury. So, my guess is that the science is the science, and that some people either a) are able to withstand running more than 3 hours better than others or b) are doing things like walking to lessen the chance of injury.

                PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

                jedigunnie26.2


                BQ in 2013

                  i run in the Rider16, Precision12/13, and Mushas4 (2 pairs), but thinking of getting some Ronin 4's soon.

                   

                  Cbus Runner

                  jedigunnied26.2:

                   

                  Another Mizuno wearer here.

                   

                  Currently have Mizuno Wave Universe 3: 1027 miles

                  Mizuno Wave Universe 4:   430 miles

                  Mizuno Wave Universe 4:   150 miles

                   

                  All are in rotation.  I have used some Shoe Goo on the 3s, but they are still going strong.

                   

                  PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

                   

                  2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

                   

                  2013

                  Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

                  Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

                  Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

                   

                  Up Next:

                  Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

                  RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

                  Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

                  jedigunnie26.2


                  BQ in 2013

                    never trained for an ultra, but I would think that might be too fast of pace for that long of a distance. Agree with cbus, but Hanson approach might not be best fit for ultra as I woul;d think you would benefit more from time on your feet for an ultra. That said a 50k is on my bucket list at some point, but on back burner for now.

                     

                     

                    I don't know what to say about this question, since I know nothing of ultra training. Was that woman running the entire 40 miles @ 9:30 pace? If so, I think the answer is yes, her risk of injury increases exponentially after 3-3:30 hours. Galloway has you walk a lot precisely to lessen the chance of injury. So, my guess is that the science is the science, and that some people either a) are able to withstand running more than 3 hours better than others or b) are doing things like walking to lessen the chance of injury.

                    PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

                     

                    2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

                     

                    2013

                    Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

                    Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

                    Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

                     

                    Up Next:

                    Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

                    RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

                    Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13


                    Rusk Runner

                      It was my impression that Galloway has you walk to avoid fatigue, not injury.

                       

                      Ultra runners will constantly be running in excess of 3 to 3.5 hours as training runs in excess of 25 miles are frequent no matter the pace, science be damned.

                       

                      I think it should easily be recognized that the Hansons method is not a "Our way is the only right way and we have the empirical data to prove it', because is not.  Hansons has alot of success with their runners but all of thier success isnt coming out of what is in their book.  I have mucho respect for the info they are putting out and what they are doing but I am not buying into Hansons as gospel.

                      PRs...5K - 20:36, 4mile - 26:15, 13.1 - 1:32, 26.2 - 3:42

                      Just Run!!!


                      Smashy!!!

                        It was my impression that Galloway has you walk to avoid fatigue, not injury.

                         

                        Ultra runners will constantly be running in excess of 3 to 3.5 hours as training runs in excess of 25 miles are frequent no matter the pace, science be damned.

                         

                        I think it should easily be recognized that the Hansons method is not a "Our way is the only right way and we have the empirical data to prove it', because is not.  Hansons has alot of success with their runners but all of thier success isnt coming out of what is in their book.  I have mucho respect for the info they are putting out and what they are doing but I am not buying into Hansons as gospel.

                         

                        I don't think anyone--certainly not me--is taking the Hansons method as Gospel. I think there are some questions about why they format their plans the way they do, and so we are trying to get to some kind of an answer. To do that assumes there is something there worth investigating.

                        I don't think it's the Hansons but sport physiologists who came up with the idea of the 3-3:30 hour threshold. They are just applying it. If someone can run at MP for 4 hours without getting injured, then more power to them. But I think the idea is that for many of us, this is to invite injury.

                        As for Galloway, as I understand it, Galloway wants you to spend time on your feet, but he acknowledges that to run 20 or so miles risks not only fatigue but injury. So instead of cutting that run short, he adds walk breaks.

                        PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)


                        Bad Ass

                          I think I am among those that can run more than 3-4 hours every week without issue.  I don't even get sore after 20 milers.  And I don't walk.  So, although I understand Hanson's theory, I think it will not be of benefit to me.

                           

                           

                          I don't know what to say about this question, since I know nothing of ultra training. Was that woman running the entire 40 miles @ 9:30 pace? If so, I think the answer is yes, her risk of injury increases exponentially after 3-3:30 hours. Galloway has you walk a lot precisely to lessen the chance of injury. So, my guess is that the science is the science, and that some people either a) are able to withstand running more than 3 hours better than others or b) are doing things like walking to lessen the chance of injury.

                          Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                          Blog

                          "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

                          jedigunnie26.2


                          BQ in 2013

                            i have a 60-80m 16wk hanson plan and set-up lot defferent than book plans, but SOS workouts still same, but LRs top at 20m, but you're running 80m those weeks and 20m LR makes sense and fits in with their 25-30% of your weekly total philosophy. I am probably going to use advanced plan in book this fall with added mileage and LR every week as they suggest. Still tinkering with it though.

                            PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

                             

                            2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

                             

                            2013

                            Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

                            Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

                            Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

                             

                            Up Next:

                            Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

                            RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

                            Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

                            onemile


                              I think part of it also has to do with being recovered enough to hit your paces hard enough on speedwork days.  The other part of it is that Hansons has you running your LR faster - at basically GMP+30 seconds, for the whole thing.  I think that takes more out of you than doing 20 at easy pace.

                               

                              I don't know that I could run 20 at 9:06 on Sunday and then hit 3 miles of 5k paced stuff (7:20) on Tuesday and then do up to 10 miles at MP (8:30) plus wu/cd on Thursday.  But if I were doing it at easy pace, that's a different story.

                               

                              I think I am among those that can run more than 3-4 hours every week without issue.  I don't even get sore after 20 milers.  And I don't walk.  So, although I understand Hanson's theory, I think it will not be of benefit to me.

                               


                              Smashy!!!

                                I think part of it also has to do with being recovered enough to hit your paces hard enough on speedwork days.  The other part of it is that Hansons has you running your LR faster - at basically GMP+30 seconds, for the whole thing.  I think that takes more out of you than doing 20 at easy pace.

                                 

                                I don't know that I could run 20 at 9:06 on Sunday and then hit 3 miles of 5k paced stuff on Tuesday and then do up to 10 miles at MP plus wu/cd on Thursday.

                                 

                                 

                                I'm starting to think Onemile and me are the same person... Or if I were female, I would be Onemile (just not as pretty Big grin.)

                                PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)