Sub-4 Marathon Group

December Donuts (Read 569 times)

SprinklesRunner


Whippet

    Docket- This is true.  I just got pureflows and only do my shorter runs in them - longest 6 mi so far.  My calves have been bad since the marathon.  it takes some time to get used to them, even though I don't heelstrike at all. 

     

    Bago- I've been doing a lot of rolling hills lately as well...not sure how smart that is given that my spring marathon is almost all downhill, but its basically speedwork without the injury risk, so bring on the hills. I consider myself a good hill runner, and my strategy is to focus entirely on the cadence, not the speed itself.  I find I lose the least steam that way. 

     

    Akalei- I feel your pain re: the anxiety about not moving.  I dont' think it means you are disordered though!  I think all us marathoners are a little crazy and feel scattered when we're not getting our runs in. 

     

     

    5 miles of hills yesterday for me.  I went for a sports massage in the evening and um...I am so sore i can't really move today.  I'll do spin tonight and then run tomorrow.  I keep oversleeping in the morning.

    13.1: 1:45 | 26.2: 3:55


    Smashy!!!

      Ami, 

      First, make sure you are in the correct sized shoe. Most people check their size by the amount of room they have between their toe and the shoe. But that isn't the best way. Check to make sure the widest part of your foot matches the widest part of the shoe. If that matches, then the rest of the shoe, including the toes, will take care of itself. My hunch is that the Ravenna and the Lunarglide are too small and therefore causing your toes to cramp and blister. 

       

      Second, even with running, your pronation doesn't really change. The tissues that are involved in pronation are not malleable like muscles. They are rigid like bones, ligaments, and tendons. But judging pronation is a really tricky business, and unless the person doing the evaluation really knows what they are doing (i.e. checking you out from head to toe, walking and running, slow mo and real time, etc.), it is VERY VERY easy to "misdiagnose" pronation. The easier way to judge your pronation is whether or not you are experiencing issues, especially injury, with your current shoes. Because you can run in the Flows without much pain, I suspect you never needed stability shoes (Adrenaline, yikes!) in the first place. 

       

      Third, now I'm gonna take out my Magic 8 Ball, and try to guess which type of shoes you'd like. If you really like the Lunarglide, I'd go back to see if you need a slightly larger size. But if the shoe fits, even after checking the widest part, etc., then here is what I'd suggest. If you like the Flow, then I'm guessing you like shoes with a lot of forefoot flexibility and a responsive feel. You'd probably want something lighter weight, but with a traditional heel to toe drop (until you transition full time into the Flows). I would check out the Mizuno Wave Precision and Wave Elixir (with a hunch you might like the Elixir more). See if you can still find a pair of the Precision 12, which has the best upper of all time. Two other shoes that you might check out, though I am less certain you'd like them, are: Nike Zoom Elite (it'll feel similarly to the Lunarglide, and has a lower heel drop) and the NB 890. I'm not sure you'd like the Ghost. I'm thinking you might find them clunky like the Guides. But they are worth a try too, but they are a very traditional neutral trainer. I don't know how you feel about cushion under the forefoot, but the Ghost, like all Brooks traditional trainers, has a wad of DNA under the forefoot, which messes up my stride. 

       

      Good luck! 

      PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)


      Smashy!!!

        Just to clarify: heel striking doesn't mean you don't take shock to the calves and AT. Actually, it means you are taking more shock to those areas. Heel striking brings that shock to the knees and quads. 

         

        this is the problem. Heel striking has gotten a bad rap these days. And I think it's inaccurate. Heel striking is not in itself evil. Many runners find great efficiency and health through heel striking. 

         

        You produce the same amount of force whether you heel strike or mid foot strike--that's just physics. It's just a question of where you want to send that force. Midfoot striking doesn't make that force go away, like some proponents make it seem. 

        PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)


        Rusk Runner

          The racer st5 is lightweight, more of a traditional heel drop, and can handle the work of a full time trainer.

          PRs...5K - 20:36, 4mile - 26:15, 13.1 - 1:32, 26.2 - 3:42

          Just Run!!!


          Canuck

            Ami - I wear neutral shoes, always have and my current rotation includes Nike Vomeros, Adidas adizero Bostons, Saucony Kinvaras and NB 890v2.  The Kinvaras have the 4mm heel drop as well, so I generally wear them for shorter, faster runs, although I have raced a HM in them with no problem.  My main training shoes are the Vomeros and the NB.  Be very careful with calf tightness - make sure to do lots of stretching - I have naturally tight calves and in the past it has led to shin splints.

             

            SRD for me yesterday, although I did do 30 mins of yoga and some foam rolling.  Will run after work tonight, probably my usual 9 mile route.

             

            As for hills, I try to maintain effort up the hill, I do allow my HR to get higher than it was on the flat ground, but not so high that I'm getting out of breath.  That generally means my pace will be slower.  I do run faster down the hill, I'm a good downhill runner and can pick up a fair bit of speed on the downhills.  Also, I need to get my legs used to fast downhills as I have a HM in April with a ton of downhill and my marathon in May also has two big downhills.  Last year after that HM, my legs were toast for two days, even though I had run hills in training a lot.  I'm hoping the increased strength training this year will help.

            PRs: 47:54 (10K); 1:46:36 (HM); 3:50:52 (FM)

            Recovering from injured knee (PCL/Lateral Meniscus)

              Ami, I had similar issues with blisters late in my marathon cycle. I had a pair of Nike Structure 13s that I had been running with, which were the only running shoe that I owned. They eventually got a hole in the side after about 700 miles that caused me to get real bad blisters. I got a new pair of Nike Structure 15s in the same size and the blisters eventually went away (but not before I slightly injured a my Posterial Tibial Tendon due to running differently while compensating for the bad blister). I eventually realized though (only 5 weeks before the marathon) that the new shoes also caused blisters on long runs and that 26 miles in those shoes would probably not be a good idea. The LRS had me try a couple different pairs of shoes and I settled on the Asics 2170s because they had the most room in the toe box. (I really don't like them, but they allowed me to run with no blisters) In the end the real issue was that my Nike shoes were ok in the length, but I needed a 1/2 size larger for width reasons. So, I don't have much advice on what shoes to switch to, but I can say that I am very glad that I didn't try to gut it out with what I had, blisters and all, even though the marathon was not very far away.

               

              I am not sure that I need the stability of the shoes that I have (the running stores I have been to only look at you walking), as my favorite shoes to run in is a relatively cheap pair of NB 750v1's that I got at DSW since they are very lightweight and I don't have to worry about blisters with the mesh toebox that they have. The only thing with those is the minimal padding in the fore foot area results in my feet getting tired if I run longer than 10 miles in them. So eventually I will get enough use out of the shoes that I have that I will feel comfortable trying out something with less stability and maybe a little less heel-toe drop.

              PRs: 10k-44:36 (10/12), HM-1:44:55 (4/13), FM-3:41 (10/13)

              akalei


                Sprinkles: You're exactly right! I think I'm feeling it more today because it's sunny out.  It wasn't so bad when it was raining and miserable Sunday and yesterday.  And +1 to oversleeping in the morning, too Smile  It's hard to get out of bed when the alarm says so when you have a pup next to you who looks too comfy to move.  That's my excuse Smile

                 

                Again, re: the minimalist shoes.  Once you get used to them, the PFs are great.  I ran Steamtown in mine about a month after I bought them and didn't have any real problems aside from a small blister between toes, but I didn't really attribute that to the shoes so much as not enough bodyglide.

                My PR's! 5K: 21:54 | 10M: 1:16:55 | HM: 1:43:40 | Full: 3:51:56

                2013: BQ or bust!

                http://justalongfortherun.blogspot.com


                Smashy!!!

                  Dang, I didn't know the whole minimalist, low heel drop was this popular. I guess I'm just a stodgy old man... Now get off my lawn!

                   

                  Re, Hills: I prepare for hills with extensive surfing of the Internet to find races that don't have any! Seriously though, I prepared for Pitt by training on the "hills" that we have here, and let's just say one man's mountain is another man's mole hill. So, since I can't train on hills, I've gotta look for races without them (or just suck it up on race day, and hope for the best). 

                  PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)


                  Ball of Fury

                    Again, thank you all so much!  I have made a list of your suggestions which I take to the LRS when I take back my Guides...hopefully after work today!  As far as blisters, I don't really mind small, painless ones on the bottoms of the toes or between them, but the one I currently have (it is getting better) was really ugly!  I think my DH was convinced I was going to need an amputation!  I definitely think the Pure Flow are good shoes for me, and I will certainly keep running in them.  If I feel great, I might even do the marathon in them, but I doubt it.  I just know that I need another pair while transitioning.  

                     

                    Cbus:  It's ok to be a stodgy old man!!  And I do think I was incorrectly labeled as needing stability shoes the first time.  Thanks for the sizing info...I will check the widths when I get home but I am pretty sure they are wide enough....I do have a wide foot though!

                     

                    Sprinkles:  Nice hill run, but ouch on the sports massage!

                     

                    Nick:  Thanks for the blister info....I was starting to think I was being a wimp!

                     

                    Akalei:  Good to know you got used to the PF rather quickly!

                    PRs:  5K 22:59, 10K 46:54,HM: 1:51:15


                    Smashy!!!

                      Sprinkles, you deserve some down time. You tore up the race circuit this year. so enjoy your painful massage. As for sleeping in...you don't have kids do you. I've got three, and they NEVER sleep in, never. In fact, they do that creepy silently-stand-by-the-bedside-and-stare-in-the-middle-of-the-night-thing...

                       

                      Akalei, hang in there. We've all been through that rut. Like Sprinkles, you tore up Steamtown too. so you also deserve some down time. Nothing disordered about that. And darn that dog of yours for looking so comfy! 

                       

                      Mdawg, nice Speed workout. What pace are you doing those at?

                       

                      Nick, did you do your Speed workout yet? 

                       

                      Banshee, have a nice SSR. 

                       

                      Zoe, have a nice run tonight. 

                       

                      Docket, we can all agree that your weather sucks. 

                       

                      Ami, good luck at the LRS! 

                      PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)


                      Trail Monster

                        I don't have a whole lot of time but I wanted to chime in on the pronation. Pronation CAN change over time. Cbus' statement that it is based on bone, tendons and ligaments is not the whole story. While your bone lengths, Q angle, etc all affect the amount of pronation you experience the strength of your muscles and any imbalances also affects Joint movement. If you correct muscle imbalances, improve mobility/flexibility, and increase your muscle mass you'll most likely find your form changes and so does your foot strike and amount of pronation. The same as an injury can cause you to change your form becoming more efficient can enhance your form. You're entire kinetic chain can change as things become stronger or weaker.

                         

                        As for the shoes, I will say to run in what is comfortable. If switching shoes feels right than go with it. If you experience new aches or pains then cut back on using them. 

                        2013 races:

                        3/17 Shamrock Marathon

                        4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

                        7/27 Burning RIver 100M

                        8/24 Baker 50M

                        10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

                         

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                        mdawg87


                          Cbus:  I'm running them at 7:53 pace.  That's the 5K pace on the Hansons pace chart for a 3:55 marathon.

                           

                          I agree with Banshee that as you strengthen your muscles and/or correct any imbalances, your form will change.  I also agree with the theory that you should run in the least amount of shoe you can.  That being said, I'm not sure I'll ever wear a neutral shoe.  I seem to respond better to a touch of stability.  And...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

                           

                          zoe:  I also suffer with the tight calf issue.  I do all the protocols...stretching, rolling, etc.  Have you always run in neutral shoes?  I'm curious if you feel the shoes affect your calf tightness.

                          PRs:  1:38:10 (HM)  3:32:46 (FM)

                          Docket_Rocket


                            Oh I bet!  I didn't really mean I like running in heat, I just prefer to dress a bit more on the warm side rather than the cool side!

                             

                            LOL.

                             

                            But when you sports bra and shorts feel like you have too many clothes, you know it's too hot out there.

                            Damaris

                             

                            As part of the 2024 London Marathon, I am fundraising for VICTA, a charity that helps blind and visually impaired children. My mentor while in law school, Jim K (a blind attorney), has been a huge inspiration and an example of courage and perseverance. Please consider donating.

                            Fundraising Page

                            Docket_Rocket


                              I don't have a whole lot of time but I wanted to chime in on the pronation. Pronation CAN change over time. Cbus' statement that it is based on bone, tendons and ligaments is not the whole story. While your bone lengths, Q angle, etc all affect the amount of pronation you experience the strength of your muscles and any imbalances also affects Joint movement. If you correct muscle imbalances, improve mobility/flexibility, and increase your muscle mass you'll most likely find your form changes and so does your foot strike and amount of pronation. The same as an injury can cause you to change your form becoming more efficient can enhance your form. You're entire kinetic chain can change as things become stronger or weaker.

                               

                              As for the shoes, I will say to run in what is comfortable. If switching shoes feels right than go with it. If you experience new aches or pains then cut back on using them. 

                               

                              I agree that pronation can change over time.  I used to wear support and now I'm in neutral.  I don't think I pronate now as bad as before.

                              Damaris

                               

                              As part of the 2024 London Marathon, I am fundraising for VICTA, a charity that helps blind and visually impaired children. My mentor while in law school, Jim K (a blind attorney), has been a huge inspiration and an example of courage and perseverance. Please consider donating.

                              Fundraising Page

                              sramaley


                                Hey Donuts.

                                 

                                Got in 3 miles on the TM. First miles since marathon two weekends ago. Legs felt good.

                                 

                                Regarding hills: I run some based on effort trying to match even effort going up and down - going slower up and faster down and then run some hard. Just try to switch it up.

                                 

                                Ind - looking at the northface 50 miler in ATL next October. Trying to get my arms around a training schedule and what I am comitting to. .....

                                 

                                Traveling for work and in MN. They got 16 inches of snow sunday and saw a person running in it. She was doing the high knee action to get through it...reminded me of running through the tires back in middle school. Crazy up here. They were outside playing paddle ball near our hotel in 10 degree weather...