Sub-4 Marathon Group

January 2013 (Read 475 times)


Bad Ass

    I would do the ones from the HM, especially since you're training for a marathon and not a short race and the HM (even though it was a time trial) would be more indicative.

     

    One mile, what is the marathon you're doing? What are the normal conditions? I would run indoors unless it is going to be cold for the marathon. No use in making it harder or not hitting paces by training in conditions you won't encounter on race day.

     

    Question: how did you pick your training paces? I put my 5k time into McMillan and the results are downright scary! I can't hit the paces it says I should and I know it. So I wrote down the interval times for 200m - 1600m because I think I could hit those. Then I input my HM time trial in and those paces look much better:

    Recovery: 11:06 - 11:57

    Long: 10:09 - 11:23

    Easy: 10:06 - 11:00

    Steady: 9:25 - 9:52

    Tempo: 9:07 - 9:22

     

    My last two long runs were 15 at 10:01 and 17 at 10:34 (the 15 I ran with a faster group of friends) so I think these pace ranges are good and I can probably run at the faster end of them until I run a tune up race for Shamrock. I'll do speed work based on my 5k pace and see how that works out. Does this seem like a good plan or would you suggest a different method of working out pace ranges?

    Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

    Next:  San Francisco Marathon

    Blog

    "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."


    Trail Monster

      I would do the ones from the HM, especially since you're training for a marathon and not a short race and the HM (even though it was a time trial) would be more indicative.

       

       

      Thanks Docket. I'm with you. The BF responses to this question really blew my mind. Suggesting I could surprise myself or that I could somehow run a 1:55 half because I ran a 2:08 TT Is absurd. Maybe they don't push themselves to race effort in training but I can and do. I know I would be really hard pressed to run much better than a 2:05 half right now. I ordered a new battery for my HRM so I'm going to track my heart rate over a couple weeks at various paces and try to decide what makes sense from there.

       

      on that note, how did you determine your HRmax and zones? I wanted to wear my monitor for my 5k on Monday but that's when I realized the battery is dead. Whoops!

      2013 races:

      3/17 Shamrock Marathon

      4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

      7/27 Burning RIver 100M

      8/24 Baker 50M

      10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

       

      My Blog

       

      Brands I Heart:

      FitFluential

      INKnBURN

      Altra Zero Drop

      cmb4314


        Happy new year!

         

        Just got back to Minnesota yesterday night, and was welcomed back by 15 degree temperatures.   Woohoo?  I liked running in NJ at my parents' house because it was 35-40 degrees which much more comfortable for me.

         

        Though, it seems like I've run my way into some mild PF.  I think it happened when I tried to do my interval workout on my parents' treadmill, which apparently is atrociously calibrated (and may or may not be stuck on a slight incline).  So I started out way too fast and nearly killed myself on the first interval before I just decided to go by effort, and after that workout my big toe joint hurt a bit on that foot.  Took a rest day, toe seemed okay, but on the next run I could feel a little bit of tugging on the plantar fascia near the ball of my foot.  Ran a few more runs and didn't really have any increasing pain in it, just twinges here and there, but after I took a rest day on Monday I woke up Tuesday and could feel the telltale feeling tearing with the first couple of steps.  I had a minor case almost exactly a year ago on the same foot but near my heel, and somehow or other it went away while still running on it.  Fingers crossed that it at least doesn't get worse - I can keep training on it no problem as is.

         

        Cbus - CCD is Catholic religious education.  Don't remember what it stands for, but I had 9 years of it Smile

         

        Docket - I don't envy you having the heat all the time, but right now I'd kill to have one run outside in something resembling warmth.

         

        The dead of winter really sucks up here and makes me dread my long runs.  Footing is icy so I can't fully relax, my cheeks and lips are constantly chapped, and seemingly no matter what I do my hands turn to ice pops and lose so much dexterity that I can't even open my gels.

         

        The one plus is the lack of dehydration. My last 20 miler it was in the low 20s and I drank probably 8 oz of fluid - 1 or 2 mouthfuls to rinse down each of my three gels. I only sweat around my sports bra, and where my elbows bend.

        My wildly inconsistent PRs:

        5k: 24:36 (10/20/12)  

        10k: 52:01 (4/28/12)  

        HM: 1:50:09 (10/27/12)

        Marathon: 4:19:11 (10/2/2011) 


        Canuck

          Morning all.  SRD for me today - Wednesday will be my usual SRD on the Hansons plan.  Easy 6 last night to kick off the new year.  Will do some yoga tonight.  I have PF in my left foot - I've had it there for a while off and on, but something seems to have aggravated it recently so it has been a bit more painful.  Got some new inserts for my work shoes, that might have been the culprit as the old inserts were pretty worn out.  Good news is that is doesn't hurt when I run once I'm warmed up, so I should be able to run through it as I have in the past, just need to make sure I ice, massage and stretch every day.

           

          mdawg - good to hear you'll be running soon.

          banshee - a race is generally the best time to get your max HR - i.e. at the end of a 5K, but if you don't have a race, you can do intervals, either on a hill or on the track.  Google it, you should find the distances and number somewhere.  You should determine your resting HR as well.

          DTF - glad you figured it out!

          PRs: 47:54 (10K); 1:46:36 (HM); 3:50:52 (FM)

          Recovering from injured knee (PCL/Lateral Meniscus)

          bagopux


            Docket, I will get in touch with Eric.  Thanks.

             

            Over the break, I read Hudson's book.  Really good read.  Fills in a bunch of the holes in some other books that you may not have even realized existed.  I've use it to develop my own plan for a HM in April.  If it goes well, I'll do the same for a FM in the fall.

             

            I'm considering running MCM.  Never done it before.  I've heard its a decently challenging course.  Not too hard but no walk in the park either.  Can anyone compare the course to some of the courses in the mid-Atlantic area, like Richmond, Thunder Road, Raleigh, National, or Tobacco Trail, or even Vermont, NYC or Cape Cod?

             

            Thanks.


            Bad Ass

              I agree with them in part.  You and I have run and race very similarly.  I am supposed to be able to do 1:54 (I have not tried, though).  Having said that, a TT that's 13 minutes off what you should be doing does not match.  Also, you run low mileage so that will affect you.  I think you can run 2:02-2:04 right now.  But you should use your TT now and maybe run another TT in 4 weeks to see whether anything has changed.  After all, the paces should be changed every so often especially when there has been improvement.

               

              And I'm in the category of running slow to race fast.  I run 11-11:30mm easy and long runs.  My 5K PR while running this pace? 24:57.  And I was not even training for a 5K.  I've gotten 3 PRs by slowing down my easy runs.  Those are results.

               

              I would do what you suggested.  Keep your easy paces based on the HM TT and use the McMillan's 5K times for your intervals.

               

               

              Thanks Docket. I'm with you. The BF responses to this question really blew my mind. Suggesting I could surprise myself or that I could somehow run a 1:55 half because I ran a 2:08 TT Is absurd. Maybe they don't push themselves to race effort in training but I can and do. I know I would be really hard pressed to run much better than a 2:05 half right now. I ordered a new battery for my HRM so I'm going to track my heart rate over a couple weeks at various paces and try to decide what makes sense from there.

               

              on that note, how did you determine your HRmax and zones? I wanted to wear my monitor for my 5k on Monday but that's when I realized the battery is dead. Whoops!

              Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

              Next:  San Francisco Marathon

              Blog

              "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."


              Bad Ass

                cmb, oh, I agree about you guys wanting something warm.  You're in the middle of Winter and it must be depressing.  Me too in reverse.  I have not seen a real Winter in 3 years (we had a Winter down here with average of 60s and lower all Winter).  It just gets depressing either way.

                Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                Next:  San Francisco Marathon

                Blog

                "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."


                Bad Ass

                  I did both NYCM and MCM.  I don't trail in hills (my elevation profile is normally ZERO).  I didn't find either of the course challenging.  Having said that, I was very sick for MCM yet I still found that course easier on my lungs, so it must've felt easier than NYCM somehow.

                   

                  Docket, I will get in touch with Eric.  Thanks.

                   

                  Over the break, I read Hudson's book.  Really good read.  Fills in a bunch of the holes in some other books that you may not have even realized existed.  I've use it to develop my own plan for a HM in April.  If it goes well, I'll do the same for a FM in the fall.

                   

                  I'm considering running MCM.  Never done it before.  I've heard its a decently challenging course.  Not too hard but no walk in the park either.  Can anyone compare the course to some of the courses in the mid-Atlantic area, like Richmond, Thunder Road, Raleigh, National, or Tobacco Trail, or even Vermont, NYC or Cape Cod?

                   

                  Thanks.

                  Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                  Next:  San Francisco Marathon

                  Blog

                  "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

                  onemile


                    Banshee - I could never do race effort on a training run.  Just couldn't do it.  I did 4 miles at my HMP in training to test it out and I really didn't feel like that effort was sustainable over 13.1 but on race day I did 13.1 at that pace.  The adrenaline / energy / magic of race day really helps.  That said, I do always make sure to hit my McMillian paces for speedwork.

                     

                    If you're planning to run a sub-4 though, you probably want to get that HM time down to around 1:50. I think that's a pretty good indicator that you are ready for sub-4.

                    SprinklesRunner


                    Whippet

                      Banshee - I use McMillan paces and pretty much hit them 90% of the time...that said, they are based on my current MP, since a marathon is my goal race.  I give myself a bit of a range.  My 15k pace is exactly what McMillan says I should run based on my marathon time...although both are a bit slower than I should run based on my half time.  I think as long as you're somewhere around those numbers you're fine- its not an exact science.

                       

                      OneMile- don't worry about the t/m or changing workout forums.  I'm a giant cold-weather mornings wuss and wind up on the treadmill frequently in the winter- doesn't seem to make a huge difference.  I'm still fine racing outside.

                       

                      I also agree with the sub 1:50 half being an indicator for sub-4.  I ran a 1;49 in September, then a 4:07 at my first marathon, and a 3:56 shortly after that.  Predicted marathon time was 3:48, but close 'nuff.

                      13.1: 1:45 | 26.2: 3:55


                      White Lightning

                        Afternoon everyone.  my issues with the winter aren't the cold, its the no sunlight that gets real depressing.  We have only 8 hours right now but the summer we hit something like 18-19 hours of sunlight.

                         

                        I'm concerned about completing my speed work outside this winter so looked at the closest indoor track here, $13 a visit.  I think not, this "cheap" hobby is already expensive enough.  So is doing your speed work on a TM that bad?  Could it be good that you can set the exact pace?

                         

                        Me - SRD for me.  I wanted to run really bad today but decided against it and try to actually follow my plan for once.  Did an hour of Yoga

                        Play the Game Hard!


                        Trail Monster

                          Banshee - I could never do race effort on a training run.  Just couldn't do it.  I did 4 miles at my HMP in training to test it out and I really didn't feel like that effort was sustainable over 13.1 but on race day I did 13.1 at that pace.  The adrenaline / energy / magic of race day really helps.  That said, I do always make sure to hit my McMillian paces for speedwork.

                           

                          If you're planning to run a sub-4 though, you probably want to get that HM time down to around 1:50. I think that's a pretty good indicator that you are ready for sub-4.

                           

                          I plan to run a sub-4 'someday'. I'm sure I will be hanging out in this thread another year or two. My next goal for the marathon is to get under 4:30, preferably under 4:20. My current marathon PR of 4:33 is a long way from my ultimate sub-4 goal. However, there's no sub-4:30 group and I had already beaten 5 hours so this was the closest group to my goals. Right now I'm just trying to put my knowledge of the body from my college classes together with a decent training program and the generally accepted training principles to be able to build a solid base to support my sub-4 goals and the ultras I'm running.

                          2013 races:

                          3/17 Shamrock Marathon

                          4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

                          7/27 Burning RIver 100M

                          8/24 Baker 50M

                          10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

                           

                          My Blog

                           

                          Brands I Heart:

                          FitFluential

                          INKnBURN

                          Altra Zero Drop


                          Trail Monster

                            Afternoon everyone.  my issues with the winter aren't the cold, its the no sunlight that gets real depressing.  We have only 8 hours right now but the summer we hit something like 18-19 hours of sunlight.

                             

                            I'm concerned about completing my speed work outside this winter so looked at the closest indoor track here, $13 a visit.  I think not, this "cheap" hobby is already expensive enough.  So is doing your speed work on a TM that bad?  Could it be good that you can set the exact pace?

                             

                            Me - SRD for me.  I wanted to run really bad today but decided against it and try to actually follow my plan for once.  Did an hour of Yoga

                             

                            Joshlynn, I'm sure you know I'm not a 'good' or 'fast' runner but I'm working with a friend who's been helping me plan my training through BR100. She's extremely accomplished and she has me do 50-75% of my speed work on the treadmill. I think being able to hit the target pace every time is a huge plus.

                            2013 races:

                            3/17 Shamrock Marathon

                            4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

                            7/27 Burning RIver 100M

                            8/24 Baker 50M

                            10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

                             

                            My Blog

                             

                            Brands I Heart:

                            FitFluential

                            INKnBURN

                            Altra Zero Drop

                            akalei


                              CCD = teaching little angels how to be Catholic, even though I'm not sure how myself sometimes.

                              My PR's! 5K: 21:54 | 10M: 1:16:55 | HM: 1:43:40 | Full: 3:51:56

                              2013: BQ or bust!

                              http://justalongfortherun.blogspot.com

                              onemile


                                Afternoon everyone.  my issues with the winter aren't the cold, its the no sunlight that gets real depressing.  We have only 8 hours right now but the summer we hit something like 18-19 hours of sunlight.

                                 

                                I'm concerned about completing my speed work outside this winter so looked at the closest indoor track here, $13 a visit.  I think not, this "cheap" hobby is already expensive enough.  So is doing your speed work on a TM that bad?  Could it be good that you can set the exact pace?

                                 

                                My track is $4 a visit and you can buy punchcards or a season pass that make it a little less.  I think doing speedwork on a TM is okay as long as it doesn't mess with your form (I have knee/ankle pain if I use the TM too much).