Swimmers

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Freesytle Form: updating the 80s S-form? (Read 257 times)

stadjak


Interval Junkie --Nobby

    So, I just finished my first marathon and was looking to get in some cardio w/o stressing my joints.  I heard swimming was good, so I hopped in the local pool.

     

    First time was a leisurely 60laps (3,000m) in 60mins.  I was using the old S-Form I was taught 20years ago.  Then I read that this S-Form is no longer taught because it is inefficient.  Instead, I've been trying to figure out what SwimSmooth recommends. 

     

    I tried the SwimSmooth technique, which seems to be a twist of the body, then a straight-armed pullback with the hand perpendicular to the backwall.  I did 100laps (5,000m) in 2:05.  I was also trying to assimilate bi-lateral breathing into my form.  I expected this to be slower than my normal form, but I still have a few questions:

     

    1) the straight-arm pullback seems to put a lot of pressure on the shoulder.  Is this correct, or am I missing something?

    2) straight-arm also doesn't seem to take advantage of the pectoral muscles -- imagine standing and trying to push down a plunger in front of you -- would you use a straight-arm, or would you bend at the elbow to get other muscles involved?

    3) When your forward arm dips into the water, do you extend forward from there when you twist your torso?  The S-Form you just dip and pull back when your hand gets to about your head.  In the New Form (name?) you seem to reach out in order to start the pull forward of where you hand entered the water (if you ignore forward momentum).

     

    Obviously, I'm looking for distance technique, not sprinting technique.

     

    Anyone have any suggestions?

    2021 Goals: 50mpw 'cause there's nothing else to do

    vegefrog


       I was a competitive swimmer age group through college, and this is the same form we were taught, they just gave it a fancy new name, LOL.

       

      I'll ask my good friend who is a collegiate swim coach what her take on this is and get back to you if she has anything useful to say. Maybe it's something totally different and I'm just not seeing it.

       

      First of all, I say do what works for you. You are swimming for fitness and to increase your overall well being, so it really isn't going to matter if you are using the same technique as Micheal Phelps. If you are used to a sculling motion under water then stick with it. You can increase efficiency by working on breathing and turnover.

       

      1) the straight-arm pullback seems to put a lot of pressure on the shoulder.  Is this correct, or am I missing something?

      If it puts pressure on your shoulder, definitely don't do it. It could be you aren't doing it correctly. Swimmers have so many issues with their shoulders already I can't see the world of competitive swimming advocating a new technique that would add to those injuries. I don't think the video is capturing it, but there is a bend in the elbow under the water. From their website, "At the same time start bending the elbow and pressing back on the water with the forearm in a near-vertical position."

       

      2) straight-arm also doesn't seem to take advantage of the pectoral muscles -- imagine standing and trying to push down a plunger in front of you -- would you use a straight-arm, or would you bend at the elbow to get other muscles involved?

      Yeah, there has to be a bend in the elbow...watch the shadow of the swimmers arms on the video...looks like you can see the bend.


       

      3) When your forward arm dips into the water, do you extend forward from there when you twist your torso?  The S-Form you just dip and pull back when your hand gets to about your head.  In the New Form (name?) you seem to reach out in order to start the pull forward of where you hand entered the water (if you ignore forward momentum).

      So I guess I don't really know the S-stroke, but I am assuming you just stick your arm in the water then do a sculling motion out, in and back? For this swimsmooth technique, you won't change too much. You place your hand in the water, rotate your body (shoulders to hips in a straight line) to lengthen your stroke. Bend your wrist to start your "catch". Then you pull  back in a straight motion, sort of along your midline. While you are pulling down you will be bending your elbow, then follow all the way through until the hand exits the water.

      Basically you are omitting the initial "out" motion. The bend of the wrist mimics the "in" and then you follow your midline for the push back.

       

      BTW, LOL, I'm sitting in my office doing swim strokes to try to explain this correctly, haha. I hope no one is watching me Wink

      vegefrog


        Oh I also wanted to add, that it's pretty impressive that you just hopped in the water for the first time in a while and swam 2 miles one day and over 3 miles the next!! You should have triathlons in your future plans Smile

         

        Our pool opens next week and I can't wait to get back in the water, but I don't think I could do even a mile straight right now, LOL.

          Oh I also wanted to add, that it's pretty impressive that you just hopped in the water for the first time in a while and swam 2 miles one day and over 3 miles the next!! You should have triathlons in your future plans Smile

           

          Our pool opens next week and I can't wait to get back in the water, but I don't think I could do even a mile straight right now, LOL.

           

          Actually, that kind of sucks since I'm still not able to swim that far yet.

           

          Anyway, maybe this will help. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODnDX-6ZkEk&feature=related

           

          The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

           

          2014 Goals:

           

          Stay healthy

          Enjoy life

           

            I think that Vege's right.  The S-stroke = SwimSmooth.  (At least that's what I think Vege said).

             

            You shouldn't feel shoulder pain.  If you do, I think you're possibly putting too much emphasis on propulsion before you're ready for it (technique needs adjustment first).

             

            I think the "S" is the natural motion when going through the SwimSmooth technique.  I think that first the (right) hand moves slightly to the left as you bend your elbow while your hips are facing to the left.  Then, later, as you rotate your hips to the right (from the left) you're pulling your arm through the water (propulsion), you're hand moves naturally to the right as it crosses your naval and your hips to your thigh. (forming the "S")

             

            Truth is... I don't know...

            I just look at video's and try to mimic the swimsmooth clip Smile

            Also, you may want to look at totalimmersion.com for endurance swimming.

             

            I saw that you've been in the water a couple times over the past week, but wonder how much you've swam over the past few months.  Doing an 8,000 yard week is tough in and of itself (divided equally among 7 days).  Doing a 5000 yard swim in your 2nd outing may also be a part of the "awkward" and "shoulder pain" challenge that you're facing.  I'm guessing that (at a minimum), the last 2000 yards today weren't overly efficient due to fatigue.

             

            Swimming is a great sport though. 

            Today, I happened to get my 1st 5000 yard swim in after 3 years of swim training.

             

            Enjoy!

            Brian

            Life Goals:

            #1: Do what I can do

            #2: Enjoy life

             

             

              Actually, that kind of sucks since I'm still not able to swim that far yet.

               

               
              BT, you're swimming like a frick'n fish!  77k yards this year while also running 400 miles this year.... Come on now.  Give me a chance to catch up to you.

               Smile

              How am I going to keep up with your yardage when you're swimming 10k yards per week!

               

              MTA: delay 1 hour.... I know the reason you're not responding is because you have your head looking down at the YMCA tiles 4 foot below your nose and trying to crank out another 2500 yards before happy hour...

              Life Goals:

              #1: Do what I can do

              #2: Enjoy life

               

               

                 
                BT, you're swimming like a frick'n fish!  77k yards this year while also running 400 miles this year.... Come on now.  Give me a chance to catch up to you.

                 Smile

                How am I going to keep up with your yardage when you're swimming 10k yards per week!

                 

                MTA: delay 1 hour.... I know the reason you're not responding is because you have your head looking down at the YMCA tiles 4 foot below your nose and trying to crank out another 2500 yards before happy hour...

                 

                2600 yards are now in the log and a nice cold Finnegans is in my hand. Next week is my cut back week, so only 7500 or so, there's your chance to catch up.

                 

                Anyway, I'm still not able to swim 60 laps at one time. Maybe I could, but I lose count after about 8 laps.

                 

                I also don't think the S-Form is the SwimSmooth technique. I've heard and my wife actually tried to get me to do it, but you apparently make an "S" with your hand while in the pull phase. Its reach, out....in....out, then finish, I tihnk.

                 

                Stadjak, have you ever heard the phrase "high elbow" in reference to the freestyle stroke? I think that means after the reach and you've rotated onto your side, you kind of keep your elbow where it is (high in the water) and start pointing your hand towards the bottom of the pool. Once its near verticle, you begin the pull phase and keep your elbow high and your hand pointed down. You start to rotate to your other side and finish the stroke with your hand at your hip.

                 

                I've never had a lessen so I'm not 100% sure I know what I'm even talking about stroke wise, but from what I've read and watched in videos, I think thats the jist of it.

                 

                The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                 

                2014 Goals:

                 

                Stay healthy

                Enjoy life

                 

                  Stadjak,

                  Decent read on technique...

                  http://www.feelforthewater.com/2012/03/overgliding-inefficiency-and.html

                   

                  Kind of relates to your question / comment #3, I think....

                   

                  BT, another week of being an overachiever... Next week, I've penciled in 25,000 yards to catch up to you. 

                  Oh, and I have a trick to count laps.  Lap#1, left of center line.  Lap#2 on center line, Lap#3 to the right of center line, Lap#4, left of center line....  Count by 3's, and create a pattern.  At the end of 10 laps, hit the lap timer on your watch, and you'll know about the time that you should have, and you'll know you counted right.  Continue on to lap #11.  Works for me, anyway.

                   

                  Y'all have a great weekend!

                  Cheers,
                  Brian 

                  Life Goals:

                  #1: Do what I can do

                  #2: Enjoy life

                   

                   

                  vegefrog


                    Yeah...I wasn't trying to say they are the same thing. I was just trying to say it wouldn't be that hard to learn the proper technique, which I guess they are calling the swimsmooth these days, LOL.

                     

                    I think more important then the catch phase is your breathing. If you haven't mastered bi-lateral breathing, that should definitely be your first step. You can work on both at the same time I guess, but I don't like to think while I swim Smile In fact this is wearing me out just thinking about doing this much thinking while I'm doing laps, LOL.

                     

                    If you really want to master it, take a lesson. I used to teach adult swim lessons and it's amazing what a few lessons could do for these people who had all the athletic ability, but lacked techinique.

                     

                    Also...when people talk about high elbows most times they are referring to the recovery, there are drills you can do like finger tip drag to help with this.

                     

                     

                    You guys are making me want to hit the pool!! I don't have a year round pool Sad Gotta wait until the outdoor pool opens in 2 weeks! I hope I can put in near the yards you guys are!!

                    stadjak


                    Interval Junkie --Nobby

                      Thanks for the replies, guys.  The links have been great.  The one with the 1970s era hair and guy out of the pool clarified a lot for me; as you guys guessed, I was completely missing the elbow bend.  I think that's the source of the should fatigue.  My shoulders feel fine, but they feel pretty worked over. However, the video demonstrates I was doing it completely wrong.

                       

                      The S-form is pretty different.  I might have this wrong, since it's been 20 years since I was taught the form, but the hand cups the water on the catch and draws away from the body, then toward the opposite shoulder (but not crossing the center-line by much, then out to the same-side hip and extend from there.  Also, the S is formed rather close to the body compared to the "deep" pull of the swimsmooth method.

                       

                      Is that really what the form is called?  SwimSmooth?

                       

                      I'd love for a collegiate level coach to chime in on modern theory.  I know there's some wacked-out tech that sprinters use, which I have no interest in emulating.  I'm looking for endurance.

                       

                      I'm pretty surprised myself with my pool performance.  I'm not doing flip-turns, so if my breathing is a bit off I'm not getting punished by oxy-debt.  But I really didn't think my marathon cardio based would transfer to the water where most of the work is done by arms, not legs.

                       

                      I realize I could keep with my S-form, but figured that it might be worth the investment to learn the "right" way.  Besides, I'm sure my S-form is "wrong" too. Wink

                       

                      As for Tri, I'm not sure.  I don't own a bike and the investment is pretty steep.  Besides, I tend to wonder how much it will adversely affect my primary passion -- running. 

                      2021 Goals: 50mpw 'cause there's nothing else to do

                         As for Tri, I'm not sure.  I don't own a bike and the investment is pretty steep.  Besides, I tend to wonder how much it will adversely affect my primary passion -- running. 

                         

                        I can't speak for you, but I can tell you a little bit about me....

                        Up until 2009, I only ran.  I didn't race.  I just ran about 20 miles per week average since 2000.  In Feb, 2009, I did my first 1/2 marathon, and in March 2009, a few of us decided to try a sprint triathlon.  We all rode with what we owned or could find on craigslist for low $$$.  I rode a mountain bike.  We also learned how to swim (275 yards straight).  The end of April 2009, I did my first triathlon.  

                         

                        I was hooked. 

                         

                        I like the balance between 3 sports.  I like the challenge of being ready for any of the 3 events and perform any of them at a high level / high endurance. 

                        Over the past couple of years, I've found that an added benefit of the 3 sports is being able to de-emphasize 1 sport if you're having a minor nagging injury as a result of that event.  For example, a running injury would keep you out of running for a few weeks.  That isn't necessarily true when you have 3 sports you're training for.

                         

                        I've learned to enjoy running more because of Triathlon and would likely be able to PR in my marathon by 10 - 15 minutes if I were to run one.


                        Regarding the price of the bike.... go to your local bike shop to get fitted.  Then shop on craigslist to find one the proper size with decent components that's relatively new.  Get a year or so in the bike to determine whether that's what you want to do, and at that time, maybe get a newer / better bike.

                         

                        Welcome to the Swimming forum!

                        Fun sport!

                        Brian 

                        Life Goals:

                        #1: Do what I can do

                        #2: Enjoy life

                         

                         

                        vegefrog


                           

                          As for Tri, I'm not sure.  I don't own a bike and the investment is pretty steep.  

                           

                          Same here. I wish I could afford one....and knew how to ride it, LOL. Those road tires intimidate me. Several of my swimming buddies are big into Triathalons now, and I'm jealous. They rock of course, because for non-swimmers that's a weak spot and we have a little bit of an advantage.

                           

                          I used to enter this sprint tri series we have here in the summer. I knew I'd be close to first out of the water and could make up some time on the run, but I told my husband to watch people fly by me on the bike portion. I have an old trusty red Schwinn.  He didn't believe a bike made that much difference. HA. When I came by him he was yelling "you are gonna need a better bike babe". I quit doing them because it sucked sooooo bad getting passed every time, by EVERYBODY.

                           

                          On my wish list along with a Sony DSLR, is a road bike...maybe someday Smile I keep my eye out on the stores around here, sometimes they have closeouts. I have looked on craigslist but don't know what ANY of the specifications mean.

                           

                          Brian, will the shops fit you for free? I'm only 5'0 tall, so I am assuming I would need an XS bike, but it would be cool to know...just in case.

                          vegefrog


                            Oh! And I emailed my UALR coach friend and my old age group coach ( she still coaches) so I'll let you know what they say Smile

                            stadjak


                            Interval Junkie --Nobby

                              Oh! And I emailed my UALR coach friend and my old age group coach ( she still coaches) so I'll let you know what they say Smile

                               

                              Thanks a lot!

                               

                              I did my own little tri today.  1mi on the dreadmill (still trying to stay off my legs), 8mi on the bike (15mph), 30laps (1500m) in the pool just before closing.  Between then was a series of leg-weight lifting (something I completely despise).

                               

                              I modified my previous interpretation of the SmoothSwim form to include a bent elbow.  It was MUCH better on the shoulder.  My hand still wants to do wavy-lines through the water, though.

                               

                              To me it's very odd that cycling is my weakest event by far.  8mi at 15mph (on a stationary bike) was pure torture.  I would have thought that the cardio base and strength of my legs, would help me much more than it seems to help me in swimming.  It might be the stationary bike that's the problem -- I've always hated them.  Legs too far apart compared to cycling.

                               

                              My last touring bike was stolen in Cambridge, MA in 1999.  Sticker shock kept me from buying a new one.  I have the funds if I want to go that route, but the mechanical failure aspect of a bike just depresses me.  I like the minimalism of running and even swimming.

                               

                              Also, I have the opposite problem from Vege.  I'm 6'3".

                              2021 Goals: 50mpw 'cause there's nothing else to do

                                Also...when people talk about high elbows most times they are referring to the recovery, there are drills you can do like finger tip drag to help with this.

                                 

                                Here is a cocuple articles that explains the "high elbow" and it has nothing to do with the recovery.

                                 

                                http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/swimcenter/barrel.html

                                http://www.h2oustonswims.org/articles/dreaded_dropped_elbow.html

                                 

                                The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                                 

                                2014 Goals:

                                 

                                Stay healthy

                                Enjoy life

                                 

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