Assuming that a 50M course is "runnable" (say, Rocky Raccoon), what kind of training plan would get you to a point to run 50M continuously? I realize that nutrition, pacing, weather, etc are equally important factors, but my question is strictly around running stamina.
The plans I see in the web wouldn't appear to do nearly enough to prepare for that kind of endurance. Most seem targeted to marathoners or 50k guys stepping up to finish their first 50M. Do non-elites run 50's? Can relatively modest volumes prepare one for this distance or is this the realm of runners with years of 100+ mpw bases? I'm curious to compare the ends of the training spectrum. Thanks for your insight.
So, you want to do your first 50M, and you want to not walk any, is that it? You want to run something like the calculators say you should be capable of, based on marathon time?
Certainly non-elites run 50 milers. Most people would go out just to finish for their first one, and for trail races, even "easy" ones like Rocky Raccoon, even most faster runners would walk a few of the hills. So I'm not sure "running 50M continuously" is really the best goal for Rocky. For an actual road course, yeah.
Honestly, if you can do 50K, you can do 50M, it just might hurt and take a while. But you don't need huge mileage to do well, either. How did your 50K feel? Once you get beyond 50K, it's mostly about nutrition, and the mental game, rather than increasing training mileage. Marathon-level training, with more of an emphasis on the long run, is really all it takes.
I'll throw this in. I've spent most of the last 5 or 6 years focused pretty exclusively on marathons and shorter distances. Last year I switched it up a bit and focused more on ultras. Year to year my mileage was more or less the same. The big thing I did differently last year was to focus more on the long runs in training. I built it up gradually but never went beyond a 6 hour training run. I PRed a 50 miler, won a 12 hour, and finished my 1'st 100 miler <24 hours. I'll admit there was well more than a little walking in the 100, but none in the 50 and almost none in the 12 hour. You want to run for a long time? Get used to running for a long time. It's just a different thing.
Also. listen to bhearn, for he's far more experienced than I at this stuff.
A list of my PRs in a misguided attempt to impress people that do not care.
Great insights. To be clear, I'm under no illusion that I'd be running a 50M without walking, let alone my 1st shot at it. So, no that's not my goal. I did want to know what aspects of training that one would focus on in order to aspire to run through a 50M. Both your comments around "run long to run long" make a lot of sense. Also helpful is the specificity around building up over time to 5 or 6 hour long runs.
What are your thoughts on B2B long runs vs single 5 or 6 hour runs? Which is right for 50M training? To me, that means the most effective training stimulus with shortest recovery.
My only over distance (and my only trail race) was a 50k I ran a few weeks after a marathon. The two races couldn't have been more different. I negative split the marathon. I bonked the 50k where my legs very suddenly said "enough" around the 3:30 mark. The last hour was a real grind. The issue (I think) was primarily nutrition (not enough calories) but I'm sure that time on feet was a mitigating factor too. Great learning experience.
After a January marathon, I do want to focus more on trail running and longer distances. It sounds like my current mileage is enough to succeed at longer distances, but the structure needs to change. Plus working on the other aspects as I go, especially the mental stuff and nutrition.
Consistently Slow
I am training for a 100. Your year to date mile is higher than mine. In the late 30 days you did 317 miles. It looks like you need only to add B2B long runs. Refueling is to be part of your training. It is amazing what foods will not stay down on a long run. I used NUNN for a long run. 7 miles in nausea instead of miles became the primary issue. Ultraladies running is a good guide.
Run until the trail runs out.
SCHEDULE 2016--
The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff
http://bkclay.blogspot.com/
www.trailrunevents.com/ul/schedule-100m.asp
Personally, I think the answer to running as much as possible for most ultras is either hill training or base mileage (or a combination of both). I don't know the elevation for RR but even a moderate elevation 50 (around 5000 ft elevation gain) requires quite a bit of hill training both up and down if you don't want to be walking by mile 40. I would try to get in between 3K and 6K for a 5K elevation gain 50 miler.
Beyond that, I would focus on trying to run your long runs, e.g. 50K+ at your 50 mile pace. And don't quit your speed training!!! I see you have a very good base and a consistent speed training regimen. You may want to add in some longer tempo runs and get in 2-3 50K+ long runs before RR and you are all set. Good luck!
MTA - personally I don't find B2B long runs very beneficial. For folks with low base mileage, e.g. 50 MPW or lower I can see how it helps, but if you are running 70+ per week I think your legs are already trained to handle the fatigue B2B runs are intended to simulate.
I don't know the elevation for RR but even a moderate elevation 50 (around 5000 ft elevation gain) requires quite a bit of hill training both up and down if you don't want to be walking by mile 40.
I don't know the elevation either, but I'm pretty sure it's much less than that. Not totally flat, but compared to most trail races, very flat.
To B2B or not to B2B, you will get different answers, all the way up to the elite level. It's a personal preference. I don't tend to do them myself, unless perhaps I'm doing two marathons in a weekend, which I don't do very often these days. Also, for long runs, I rarely go over 20 miles as a solo training run. Longer, and I will find a race. It's just easier and more fun that way. So for long runs, I'd say throw in a handful of 50Ks / trail marathons, and you'll be good for a decent 50M, especially an easy one like RR. I was talked into doing White River for my first 50 (~8,700' gain). Just about killed me. I'd just done my first double (two marathons in one weekend), and a friend told me "Oh, if you can do that, you can do a 50. You should come do White River with us, it's beautiful!". She was right... still just about killed me.
Thanks Greg. Thing is, I seem to know less about running every year, so I'm not sure how much you should listen to me. Or rather, the more I learn, the less coherent a picture I have of how it all fits together. My first year, I'd basically just read Pfitzinger, and I knew it all. There's something to be said for having a clear model in your head of how it all works, even if you don't realize it's really much more complicated.
For my most recent marathon PR, I threw the book out the window and just ran whatever I felt like every day. Now, I don't really get training at all. I am mixing it up, experimenting. I've been on a low-carb, high-fat diet for a couple months now. I think that's going to hit my marathon performance pretty hard, but it will likely help for ultras. Anyway it is new territory that I am still trying to figure out how to think about. For example: what limits performance? I think in terms of lactate threshold, but with essentially no glycogen to burn, I can't be producing much lactate. Yet fast running clearly suffers. Only logical, since I can only burn fat at a particular rate (increased though it may be relative to high-carb runners). But how does that rate limit translate into fatigue, exactly? Got me. It's unsettling, for me, not having a model.
Now, I don't really get training at all. I am mixing it up, experimenting. I've been on a low-carb, high-fat diet for a couple months now. I think that's going to hit my marathon performance pretty hard, but it will likely help for ultras. Anyway it is new territory that I am still trying to figure out how to think about. For example: what limits performance? I think in terms of lactate threshold, but with essentially no glycogen to burn, I can't be producing much lactate. Yet fast running clearly suffers. Only logical, since I can only burn fat at a particular rate (increased though it may be relative to high-carb runners). But how does that rate limit translate into fatigue, exactly? Got me. It's unsettling, for me, not having a model.
I messed around briefly with the high fat/low carb thing but I was doomed to fail. I brew beer at home so, that is naturally a conflict of interest. I've settled for high fat, medium carb and it seems to be okay. Never really had a problem with fueling anyway except in high temps + high humidity for 10+ hours at a stretch and I've seen plenty of high fat/low carb runners suffer under those conditions equally. Like most people, I'm never going to be able to 100% focus on running so I have to pick the things that are worth the effort.
Anyway, I still subscribe to the marathon training model which includes at least 1-2 days per week of higher intensity workouts, whether speed training or a very tough hill workout. If those suffered because of diet, I would switch up the diet. Just my 2 cents.
Thing is, I seem to know less about running every year, so I'm not sure how much you should listen to me. Or rather, the more I learn, the less coherent a picture I have of how it all fits together.
Amen to that. I'm not sure if it's ironic given the rest of your post but I'm about to start my first ever cycle of pfitz training for next year's Boston because I'm pretty sure being my own dumbass coach making it up as I go has gotten me about as far as it's likely to. We shall see.
As to b2b vs. long runs, all I can add is that I alternated between the two every other week. I suspect the single long runs were more beneficial, but those combined with the b2bs certainly made 20 seem like an everyday no big deal run, so there's that.
Uh oh... now what?
For what little it is worth -- regardless of your training, terrain will dictate whether you can run the whole thing.
RR is runnable, but if the thunderstorms come in (2012?) you will have water and that sand/mud stuff to suffer through.
One other (minor?) thing -- work on being minimalist (as much as I dislike that word when related to running) at the aid stations -- pause, eat/drink, get out. The transition from/to running becomes more involved as the hours pass.
rgot
Beyond that, I would focus on trying to run your long runs, e.g. 50K+ at your 50 mile pace.
I don't know what 50 mile pace is but assume its a really comfortable low gear. My guess is that it's on the slower end of that everyday "easy" pace. Thoughts?
On another note: The RR is well below 1k altitude, so that's not a concern. I would like to mix more hill training into the recipe. Around here, I really have to search to get in 500 feet of gain over a 20 mile road run. I think it's strange & inconvenient to drive to a running spot. Unless it's a race. Then, I have no problem driving or flying hundreds of miles and paying for the privilege to run a few miles with you good folks.
Fifty-mile pace is somewhere between 7:38 and 14:02 --the courses were somewhat different.
Everyday easy pace would (should) be the long runs, the endurance building stuff.
Pace is mostly useless for ultramarathons unless you are on a track or reasonably flat road course. The use of a GPS gives folks the idea of pace, but if you try to run pace on trails--the inherent faults of a GPS will get you into a lot of trouble long before the race is finished.
... but for what it's worth, McMillan predicts a 50M time of 7:30 (9:00 pace) based on your marathon PR. That would be for a fast road course, going in optimally trained. For reference, my marathon PR is 2:58, and my 50M PR is 7:27, on a pretty fast course -- but that was not a goal race. McMillan says 6:35 for a 50M goal time for me, 7:55 pace, which sounds about right.
Going instead by your 50K time predicts 8:28 (10:10 pace).
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.php/calcUsage/calculate