Ultra Runners

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24 Hour strategery (Read 514 times)


Imminent Catastrophe

    I'm wondering what strategy you 24-hour veterans utilize. I've done some 12-hour races just slow and steady, and usually my legs are pretty much toast and I'm moving a lot slower at the end. I have a 24-hour coming up in February, a flat 1.7-mile trail course. I assume most use  a walk/run or run/rest approach. 

    "Able to function despite imminent catastrophe"

     "To obtain the air that angels breathe you must come to Tahoe"--Mark Twain

    "The most common question from potential entrants is 'I do not know if I can do this' to which I usually answer, 'that's the whole point'.--Paul Charteris, Tarawera Ultramarathon RD.

     

    √ Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 20/21 July 2013

    Boston Marathon 21 April 2014

    Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 19/20 July 2014


    old woman w/hobby

      Funny, I was going to ask this very thing.

       

      This topic was touched on earlier today in the main forums but I was

      thinking that asking in here would get more responses.  I am somewhat confused

      about the whole  run walk thing.  But then I'm easily confused.

      steph  

       

      OCD  If you don't laugh...   

      DoppleBock


        http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

        2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

         

          You might look at Karl King's article "The Advantage of a Run/Walk Strategy for 24 Hour Runs" in A Step Beyond: Definitive Guide to Ultrarunning" or the original 1994 article in Ultrarunning for some justification for 25min run : 5 min walk in 24-hr race. No 24-hr experience myself (10-hr is only fixed time race I've done). IIRC, both the 25-min and 5-min intervals had some physiological basis, and the run / walk allowed you to run at a pace / effort closer to normal then recover. Running straight through would generally be a slower pace than most people train at - or at least that was the theory. Plus, much like hilly races, the run / walk provides a change in muscle usage.

          "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
            I'm not a veteran (I've only run 2-24 hour races) but it sounds like you're looking for input so I'll chime in. I utilized a run/walk strategy-I walked all inclines and tried to run the flats and declines. Not that the course was hilly but there were ups and downs. When the wind picked up, I also started walking upwind and running downwind.

             

            AKTrail-Thanks for the reference. I viewed walk breaks as opportunities for the heart rate and muscles to recover, so I thought 2-3 minutes would be plenty. I need to look up the reasoning for 5 minutes.

             

            I'm actually really Interested in goal setting. For someone starting out, how do you know what you're capable of in your first (or second) race? Like DB said, going out too fast by 5 minutes could cost you 20-30 minutes later.

             

            I'm wondering what strategy you 24-hour veterans utilize. I've done some 12-hour races just slow and steady, and usually my legs are pretty much toast and I'm moving a lot slower at the end. I have a 24-hour coming up in February, a flat 1.7-mile trail course. I assume most use  a walk/run or run/rest approach. 

              I have dropped the ball in all of my 24-hour races when it comes to hydration/electrolyte balance.  I think that being so close to an aid station for short-loop fixed-time races warps me somewhat and keeps me overhydrating and overeating.  I handled the problem okay at Merrill's Mile 24 Hour in September and got a fix on the hydration errors, thankfully (but still dropped out at 41 miles 9 hours into the race due to severe shin splints). 

               

              I somehow got a handle on the balance by resolving to treat the 24-hour as though it were a point-to-point race and, as such, only visiting the aid station every five miles or so. 

               

              I usually pick specific walk-break portions of the loop and adhere to them most of the time.  If there are hills on the course, then the walk breaks are an easy decision.  If the race is flat, then I will pick landmarks for walk breaks or utilize my Galloway intervals by which I learned while training for my first marathon years ago. 

               

              I have 24 Hours of HOSTELity in mid-January.  It's a 0.65 mile loop with 100 feet of elevation, so I've got my work cut out for me. 


              Bacon Party!

                I need to revisit the 25/5 thing. Julie Aistars uses it to great effect - over multiple days.

                 

                I'm currently toying with more of a set, conservative pace ... walking the remainder of any mile. (eg., 10-min pace ... run a mile in 9:30, then walk the remaining 30 seconds).

                Can keep you from going out too fast, but still allow you to run at your comfortable easy pace. Just forces you to take a break and walk the rest if you get too frisky.

                 

                You can work your way a bit ahead by this method, but you'll ultimately be limited by the selected pace (once/if walk breaks get too long).

                 

                Other than that, the only advice I've got is "don't have a bum foot that constrains you by threatening devastating Lisfranc sprain."

                Liz

                pace sera, sera


                Uh oh... now what?

                  On a whim at the Pac Rim (one-mile loop) I decided to run two laps, walk one.  The

                  24 hours was secondary.  I was more interested in what sort of 50-mile time that

                  pattern would get me.  It was a little under ten hours when I hit fifty.

                   

                  I was running 8:30-8:45s and walking 15ish.  During the next week's "playing with it in

                  my mind" runs I really wished I had gone there with the intent to run the 24 hours.

                   

                  A major downfall (I was fit enough to be closer to nine hours) was the social

                  aspect of time events.  There were quite a few people I had not seen for a whle.

                  A "while" being anywhere from a few weeks to a few years.  The renewal of

                  friendships and conversations had me switching from my pace to his pace

                  and presto!  I was no longer running my race.

                   

                  I think it was Ann Trason (several years back) who talked about staying within

                  your race.  Wishing I could come up with something original, but failing, I

                  paraphrased her:  Run your plan.  Stay within your realm.  Don't feel bad if

                  someone passes you.  Don't chortle with glee if you pass someone.  Keep

                  a sense of what your are about.  Keep pressing on, maybe it is one of those

                  good days when you pick it up and keep on picking it up.

                   

                  Sorry, this stuff is never as concise as it was intended to be.

                   

                  rgot

                    A couple of years ago, at a fixed-time race, I gave the following advice to a friend.

                     

                    "Whatever you do, do not think about the theme song from Ghostbusters during the race, because you will never be able to get that song out of your head.  At my first 24-hour run, "Ghostbusters" got into my head and, for the life of me, I could not get that song out of my head for the rest of the race.  It drove me crazy, thinking of that "Ghostbusters" song over and over.  So, just do not even think about that song at all.  Trust me on this.  Whatever you do, you must absolutely keep from thinking about the "Ghostbusters" song at all.  Just do not let it enter your mind even once."

                     

                    He was not particularly grateful for this advice.

                     

                    Later in the race, when I was starting to get my second wind after a rough spell, and was focusing within my own race by withdrawing mentally and ignoring my surroundings, he came up behind me without me hearing him, and yelled, "Ghostbusters!!!!!".  I must have jumped ten feet in the air.  

                     

                    So, what goes around comes around, especially during fixed-time loop events. 

                    DoppleBock


                      That is the best / hardest to follow advice - Stay within your plan or at least the variations of your plan.  Since my plan is based on effort - It is easier to stay within my plan.  You do have to allow for obviously needed audibles - If it is windier that all get out and it is suppose to calm down after dark, don;t fight the wind.  If it is hotter than hell and it will cool significantly at night - Don't fight the heat.

                       

                      Taking wastes needed Oxygen, but can supply a mental boost.  I tend to preserve my o2 

                       

                      On a whim at the Pac Rim (one-mile loop) I decided to run two laps, walk one.  The

                      24 hours was secondary.  I was more interested in what sort of 50-mile time that

                      pattern would get me.  It was a little under ten hours when I hit fifty.

                       

                      I was running 8:30-8:45s and walking 15ish.  During the next week's "playing with it in

                      my mind" runs I really wished I had gone there with the intent to run the 24 hours.

                       

                      A major downfall (I was fit enough to be closer to nine hours) was the social

                      aspect of time events.  There were quite a few people I had not seen for a whle.

                      A "while" being anywhere from a few weeks to a few years.  The renewal of

                      friendships and conversations had me switching from my pace to his pace

                      and presto!  I was no longer running my race.

                       

                      I think it was Ann Trason (several years back) who talked about staying within

                      your race.  Wishing I could come up with something original, but failing, I

                      paraphrased her:  Run your plan.  Stay within your realm.  Don't feel bad if

                      someone passes you.  Don't chortle with glee if you pass someone.  Keep

                      a sense of what your are about.  Keep pressing on, maybe it is one of those

                      good days when you pick it up and keep on picking it up.

                       

                      Sorry, this stuff is never as concise as it was intended to be.

                       

                      rgot

                      http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                      2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                       

                      andrew.albright


                        I was wondering if anyone has used the McMillian calculator for pacing/training strategy for a 24 hr race?    For people with experience with flat/track 24hr ultras do his paces make sense? 

                         

                        For example, I just ran a 8:11 marathon (to make it easy, I'll pretend I ran a 8:00 pace).

                        McMillian calculators then extrapolates this to

                        50k  - 8:12 pace

                        50M - 9:19

                        100k - 9:53

                        100M - 12:08

                         

                        So for 100M/24hr, can you then estimate to run something like 2 miles at 10 mpm and then walk 1 mile at 17 mpm?

                         

                        For my marathon, I was at 55-60miles per week with a lot of miles at 8 mpm.  I'm planning on trying to up my weekly mileage and run most of my miles at 9-9:30mpm pace (at sub Maffetone heart rate).  I've always wanted to try a longer race 100m or 24 hr race and figure that after 3-4 months of this type of training might be a good time to try one.

                          I was wondering if anyone has used the McMillian calculator for pacing/training strategy for a 24 hr race?    For people with experience with flat/track 24hr ultras do his paces make sense? 

                           

                          For example, I just ran a 8:11 marathon (to make it easy, I'll pretend I ran a 8:00 pace).

                          McMillian calculators then extrapolates this to

                          50k  - 8:12 pace

                          50M - 9:19

                          100k - 9:53

                          100M - 12:08

                           

                          So for 100M/24hr, can you then estimate to run something like 2 miles at 10 mpm and then walk 1 mile at 17 mpm?

                           

                          For my marathon, I was at 55-60miles per week with a lot of miles at 8 mpm.  I'm planning on trying to up my weekly mileage and run most of my miles at 9-9:30mpm pace (at sub Maffetone heart rate).  I've always wanted to try a longer race 100m or 24 hr race and figure that after 3-4 months of this type of training might be a good time to try one.

                           

                          Assuming a reasonable mileage base, and by reasonable I mean >30 mpw, 100M/24Hr is ultimately a test of mental endurance. Before stepping up to that, try to get in a couple of 8 hour races, like a 50 miler or 8 hour fixed time (wish there were more of those).  There is a point, somewhere around 4-6 hours, where the body is just screaming at you to give up, but you find that you can just keep going.  The first few times, it helps to get over that hurdle by knowing that the agony will end in short order, rather than 20 or more hours later.

                           

                          What has worked for me has been run 8 minutes, walk 2 minutes, repeat for as long as possible.  Towards the end, this might decay to run 5, walk 5.  Walking for an entire mile, or walking because the wheels have come off, is extraordinarily demoralizing.  As far as 8/2 or 25/5, there is virtually no difference in pace, so in the end, it is worthwhile to try each system to see which works better.

                          2013 H1:  7 hours/week base.  Q3: Train for goal race.  Q4:  Goal Race.

                            I was wondering if anyone has used the McMillian calculator for pacing/training strategy for a 24 hr race?    For people with experience with flat/track 24hr ultras do his paces make sense? 

                             

                            For example, I just ran a 8:11 marathon (to make it easy, I'll pretend I ran a 8:00 pace).

                            McMillian calculators then extrapolates this to

                            50k  - 8:12 pace

                            50M - 9:19

                            100k - 9:53

                            100M - 12:08

                             

                             

                             

                            I don't think they make any sense - they are wildly optimistic.  If your marathon pr is at 8:00 per mile, I don't think you will be running a 50 miler at 9:19 pace, let alone a 100 mi at 12:08 per mile. YMMV.


                            Muddling through

                              I don't think they make any sense - they are wildly optimistic.  If your marathon pr is at 8:00 per mile, I don't think you will be running a 50 miler at 9:19 pace, let alone a 100 mi at 12:08 per mile. YMMV.

                               

                              Any real life examples of what might be reasonably expected? 

                              2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race

                                Any real life examples of what might be reasonably expected? 

                                 

                                Not really - marathon and shorter are not a great predictor of ultra results. At my peak I can probably run about a 2:50, and have run a trail 50k in 3:35ish, 50 mi in 7:30ish and 76mi in 12 hrs.
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