Ultra Runners

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Nutrition question (Read 83 times)

HoosierDaddy


    Not looking for a diagnosis but seeking some help.  2nd time having a nearly identical bonk at about 9-10 hours into a race.

     

    Maltodextrin based nutrition with 2.5 mg salt /hr (200 cals/hour)

    Supplemented with waffle or gel for another 100 or so cals/hour.

    Water was arond 20-24 oz/hour (hot day, too).

    Bonks happening on big uphills.

    Symptoms (seemed to recover a bit on flats/down then struggled again on ups):

    nearly slow motion hiking

    Dry heave a few times

    nausea

    *ears blocked - almost like being in a plane and ears not popping*  This is the weird one.

     

    I don't think it is hydration.  I didn't supplement with salt and was afraid maybe I was taking in to much (see Noakes - waterlogged).  Thought I was taking in enough cals, too.  The salt thing has me confused anymore given recent research.  I tend to have a lot of salt on my clothes, but Noakes says this doesn't need to be replaced - the body is normalizing.

     

    Got through last 2 hours sipping coke only in a bottle (< 1oz per 10 mins).

    The ear thing seems like an odd symptom.

     

    Any thoughts?  Thanks!

      I've had the ear thing happen to me.

       

      It was a hot day, and I ran about 2 hours on a trail, then decided to run the 8 miles home.  There is water at the trailhead and I had been drinking some during the run.  Things went bad really quick and had the same symptoms you described. (Slow motion hiking, nausea, blocked ears, I don't remember if I had dry heaves but do remember vomitting later that afternoon)

       

      You mentioned it was a hot day.  Hot days early in the season are tough for long runs.  It seems no matter how much I drink I can't keep up with sweat loss.  Are you sure you were getting at least 20 oz/hour?

       

      When this happened to me, I attributed it to dehydration, but that's just a guess.


      Occasional Runner

        I don't know how big you are, but 300 calories is bordering on too much. You can't actually process 300 calories an hour.

         

        You keep saying "salt". You need a well balanced electrolyte, in which sodium is a component. The symptoms sound like electrolyte deficiency to me.

         

        The dry heaves are probably a combination of the electrolyte problem and your body trying to purge calories it can't process.

        9/13- Mid Mountain Marathon

        9/26- Bear 100

        10/18- White Rim Trail FKT

        11/1- Javelina Jundred

        12/6- Cajun Coyote 100

        HoosierDaddy


          I don't know how big you are, but 300 calories is bordering on too much. You can't actually process 300 calories an hour.

           

          You keep saying "salt". You need a well balanced electrolyte, in which sodium is a component. The symptoms sound like electrolyte deficiency to me.

           

          The dry heaves are probably a combination of the electrolyte problem and your body trying to purge calories it can't process.

          Thanks to both replies.

           

          I tend to believe it is electrolyte issues but have struggled a lot to determine what is "right".  I've used S Caps before but not in a while.  Mainly relying on EFS powder that provides (how I measure it out) about ~2.5mg sodium/hr among other electrolytes.

           

          My frustration lies in that fact that I do believe I am consuming a lot of fluid but, in the race that last 13 hour, I never urinated once.  Again, Noakes says that doesn't matter and frankly I am not sure it does if you are getting the right amount of intake.  Noakes also describes low salt with no urinating.

          The challenge is, getting this worked out in training, not a race... but never seems an issue until 10+ hours in.


            Maltodextrin based nutrition with 2.5 mg salt /hr (200 cals/hour)

             

            Are you sure about that measurement, 2.5 mg of salt per hour?  Compare to an S! cap:

             

            The S! Caps label lists sodium as the element, 341 mg per capsule. If you want to compare to other products that list the sodium as sodium chloride, S! Caps supply 867 mg of sodium as sodium chloride.

             

            Maybe this is a typo, but it is important to consume carbs and sodium in the proper ratio.  Between the stress of running and heat, it is possible that absorption in the small intestine is at a reduced rate if there is not enough sodium relative to the glucose.

             

            The occasional S! cap isn't going to hurt.  Maybe take 1 every 4 hours and see what happens next time.

             

            If possible, keep track of your weight during the race.

            2013 H1:  7 hours/week base.  Q3: Train for goal race.  Q4:  Goal Race.

            HoosierDaddy


               

              Are you sure about that measurement, 2.5 mg of salt per hour?  Compare to an S! cap:

               

              The S! Caps label lists sodium as the element, 341 mg per capsule. If you want to compare to other products that list the sodium as sodium chloride, S! Caps supply 867 mg of sodium as sodium chloride.

               

              Maybe this is a typo, but it is important to consume carbs and sodium in the proper ratio.  Between the stress of running and heat, it is possible that absorption in the small intestine is at a reduced rate if there is not enough sodium relative to the glucose.

               

              The occasional S! cap isn't going to hurt.  Maybe take 1 every 4 hours and see what happens next time.

               

              If possible, keep track of your weight during the race.

               

              Not a typo but was thinking in %.

              I use 1/2 scoop EFS per bottle along with another carb mix= 150 mg sodium... and then consume 1/2 bottle hour.  So about 75 mg/hour.  good catch.

                Do you have Lore of Running?  On P 217, there is an anecdote from Ann Trason  that talks about taking Thermotabs or S! Caps.  After prior pages of "sodium makes no difference", Noakes concludes,

                 

                "This information is interesting because it shows that runners develop a salt craving during longer distance races.  Interestingly, the amounts ingested by Trason are quite small, about 200 mg per hour against a predicted loss of sodium chloride in sweat and urine of 1 to 3 g per hour."

                 

                75 mg/hour may not be enough, after 8+ hours.  Were you craving salt?

                2013 H1:  7 hours/week base.  Q3: Train for goal race.  Q4:  Goal Race.


                Imminent Catastrophe

                  I'm thinking what Steve_S said, it's the heat. Once I get overheated it doesn't matter how slow I go, or how much water I drink, I don't recover unless I take a serious timeout and cool off. When you're hot you're hot. I've been there many times and I don't think I've ever fully recovered from that during a run. I've partially recovered by going into a cool place, drinking ice water and icing down, then finished the training run but was never fully back to full strength.

                  FWIW I've had some success preventing that condition. First there's this:

                  I call that my Lawrence of Arabia hat. Any time you get the chance, at an aid station, a creek, or from your water bottle, soak this thing and slap it on your head. Especially in dry climates it's an amazing air conditioner. That's my A Number 1 hot-weather gear. Oh and it shields your neck from UV too.

                  Then there's the Cool Off Bandana at Zombierunner (NFI). It's a bandana with suede sewn in and pockets. If the aid stations have ice, dump some in there. If not, just soak it with water. Wrap around your neck. Either way it's a nice air conditioner and lasts for an hour or more.

                  "Able to function despite imminent catastrophe"

                   "To obtain the air that angels breathe you must come to Tahoe"--Mark Twain

                  "The most common question from potential entrants is 'I do not know if I can do this' to which I usually answer, 'that's the whole point'.--Paul Charteris, Tarawera Ultramarathon RD.

                   

                  √ Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 20/21 July 2013

                  Boston Marathon 21 April 2014

                  Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 19/20 July 2014


                  Trail Monster

                    I'm going to go another direction and say low blood sugar. I have to have simple sugars for longer runs. Candy, Gatorade, apples, Shot Bloks, whatever. Every time I kick the sugar and try to race or run long, I bonk BIG TIME. And I feel worse for longer afterward.

                    2013 races:

                    3/17 Shamrock Marathon

                    4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

                    7/27 Burning RIver 100M

                    8/24 Baker 50M

                    10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

                     

                    My Blog

                     

                    Brands I Heart:

                    FitFluential

                    INKnBURN

                    Altra Zero Drop

                    HoosierDaddy


                      I'm going to go another direction and say low blood sugar. I have to have simple sugars for longer runs. Candy, Gatorade, apples, Shot Bloks, whatever. Every time I kick the sugar and try to race or run long, I bonk BIG TIME. And I feel worse for longer afterward.

                       

                      I've wondered.  But can't believe I need more calories.  Seems like all I am doing is sucking down sugar solution.  We'll see....plan to experiment a lot in the coming weeks.

                      DoppleBock


                        Ability to process calories is a very individual thing.  I tend to take 500 per hour and never get sloshy stomache or have any issues.  600 and hour and it goes poorly.  < 350 an hour and it goes poorly.   Ability to do 300 per hour would put you at a very average place.  Only being able to process 200 would put a person below average.

                         

                        I also take 30 ounces of fluid per hour

                         

                        I agree that it sounds like electrolyte imbalance, but also possible dehydration.  You can sweat / expire (In breath) more than 20-24 ounces of fluid per hour

                         

                        I don't know how big you are, but 300 calories is bordering on too much. You can't actually process 300 calories an hour.

                         

                        You keep saying "salt". You need a well balanced electrolyte, in which sodium is a component. The symptoms sound like electrolyte deficiency to me.

                         

                        The dry heaves are probably a combination of the electrolyte problem and your body trying to purge calories it can't process.

                        http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                        2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                         

                        DoppleBock


                          Good luck - But I personally would not do a race > 4 hours without adidtional electrolyte suppliment ... I don't care what Noakes says, I am a heavy sweater and the only few times I have ever had issues with cramps is when I avoided S-Caps after his book ... never again.

                           

                           

                          I've wondered.  But can't believe I need more calories.  Seems like all I am doing is sucking down sugar solution.  We'll see....plan to experiment a lot in the coming weeks.

                          http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                          2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                           

                          HoosierDaddy


                            Good luck - But I personally would not do a race > 4 hours without adidtional electrolyte suppliment ... I don't care what Noakes says, I am a heavy sweater and the only few times I have ever had issues with cramps is when I avoided S-Caps after his book ... never again.

                             

                             

                            I am with you.  That is experiment #1.

                             

                            Experiment #2 will be to see how much I can put down without vomiting it back up. Probably start with 300 cals (3 gels)/ hour.


                            Trail Monster

                               

                              I've wondered.  But can't believe I need more calories.  Seems like all I am doing is sucking down sugar solution.  We'll see....plan to experiment a lot in the coming weeks.

                               

                              Not calories, simple sugars. You're putting in carbs and fake supplements. I can't do those. Real food is what my body processes best. Fruit, sugary soda, candy, etc. Things that are mostly real sugar and not 'solutions'. Definitely worth a try.

                              2013 races:

                              3/17 Shamrock Marathon

                              4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

                              7/27 Burning RIver 100M

                              8/24 Baker 50M

                              10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

                               

                              My Blog

                               

                              Brands I Heart:

                              FitFluential

                              INKnBURN

                              Altra Zero Drop

                              HoosierDaddy


                                 

                                Not calories, simple sugars. You're putting in carbs and fake supplements. I can't do those. Real food is what my body processes best. Fruit, sugary soda, candy, etc. Things that are mostly real sugar and not 'solutions'. Definitely worth a try.

                                 

                                Not using anything "fake".  By solutions I mean maltodextrin based drinks (which is 90% of what is out there).  Not interested in fructose.Soda has worked before and I lost sight of that.  Plan to try it. 

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