Ultra Runners

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Running 1st ultra (12hr) in fall - progress report posted (Read 377 times)

toyger


    George, no advice as I'm still as new as you are to ultra running. I just wanted to pop in and say that I'm looking forward to running with you and others next fall.

    Jen

    DoppleBock


      I am a bit different and I am not one that likes the back-to-back long runs

       

      I would rather do one really long run and recover

       

      I tend to do a fair amount of 4-7 hour runs to train for the 24 hour race.

       

      I do not do longer than 8 hour runs to train - They just tear me down too much.

      http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

      2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

       


      Muddling through

        I am a bit different and I am not one that likes the back-to-back long runs

         

        I would rather do one really long run and recover

         

        I tend to do a fair amount of 4-7 hour runs to train for the 24 hour race.

         

        I do not do longer than 8 hour runs to train - They just tear me down too much.

         

        I'll have to try both approaches to see how I respond to each. Since I'm only planning for the 12 hour race, do you think 4-5 hours is a long enough training run? I was never a big advocate of 20-milers when marathon training. I rarely went over 16 but ran a lot of double digit days. This is making me rethink every aspect of training because I've always focused on speed and quality.

        2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race


        Uh oh... now what?

          I'll have to try both approaches to see how I respond to each. Since I'm only planning for the 12 hour race, do you think 4-5 hours is a long enough training run? I was never a big advocate of 20-milers when marathon training. I rarely went over 16 but ran a lot of double digit days. This is making me rethink every aspect of training because I've always focused on speed and quality.

          But you aren't training for a marathon.  You are training for a 12-hour.  Start wrapping your mind around endurance, staying out there long enough to get learn how your body and mind will react to the stress that happens beyond four hours.  Additional blathering:

           

          I don't see where you have time to see which (B2B versus single long runs) will work for you. You are talking about the method for building the endurance base. That requires time, not a three-week sampler from this, then that, then something else. For someone already reasonably fit the endurance phase takes around twelve (12) weeks. That is just an opinion, nothing etched in stone anywhere.

           

          Very few people I have met have ever taken the time to try one method this year, question it, and try a totally different method the next year. It takes too much time out of their running life (if racing).

          -------------
          The back-to-back versus one long-run schools of thought, like most everything else in ultras is riddled with dogmatic sort of offerings. Part of the reason for this is the time needed to change training methods when there is no guarantee the new way will be better, i.e., why should I cope with the fear and anxiety of trying something that might not work?

           

          When I started running ultras (100k or less) I used the "weekend total" (WT) method (that is not any sort of official name) for my mileage.
          hard weeks = WT of 35ish, Wednesday was about two hours
          medium weeks = WT of 30ish, Wednesday was about two hours
          easy weeks + WT of 15ish, Wednesday was about an hour

           

          Hard/hard/medium/easy for the sixteen weeks ending two weeks before the "target" fifty miler. If I needed a 35-mile weekend it could be split any way I wanted: 15/20, 35/5, 22/13, 0/35 ... whatever. If I got it all on Saturday, there was still a short easy loosen-things-up run on Sunday.

           

          I ran a 6:31:04 50-miler off training that I had no idea whether, or not, it was correct. I knew it worked, but the question is often not about it working, the question is about improving either finishing time or physical/emotional well-being at the finish.

           

          When it came time to get ready for that same 50-miler the following year I was ready to implement the many responses I had from veterans of ultras. For 16 weeks I did what the consensus seemed to be (close to the B2B idea), then I tapered, then I crashed at 7:24:18.

           

          I had tried a program that my body and, more importantly, my head did not believe in. The only difference in the two training methods was the weekends. The first year I ran long on Saturday and just a short loosen-things-up 4-6 miler on Sunday. The second year I ran 25-35 on Saturday and 12-16 on Sunday. Both years had a stress and rest cycle of hard-hard-medium-easy periods.

           

          I did the WT thing because I felt the B2B method kept me tired and beat-up, unrested, achy--perhaps age and foolish adventures played a part.

           

          Nothing about training for ultras is etched in stone. It can't be, we are too different. Within our household (before my wife had her hip replaced) I believed in 5-day run weeks and midlevel (60-65 miles per week) while she was running seven days a week and often topping 100 miles per week. Who was right? She beat me once. I beat her once. We left it at that, an unanswered question.

           

          You need to find something to get you through the base phase so you have the foundation. Then you transition through endurance to strength to the optional speed phase.

           

          How I run has nothing to do with you other than being a possible place to start. If what you do seems to leave unanswered questions at the end of the year, then you try something else--and hope against hope it works. In the end what works for you might not work for me, but neither method will be wrong in a general way.


          Muddling through

            John M - I may not have any choice in which method I use or even whether I'll need to use a hybrid method. My work schedule is erratic and never the same from week to week. I may have one week with 3 consecutive days off and the next 3 weeks never have 2 consecutive days off. The traditional weekend as such does not exist for me since I work retail and that includes working weekends and some holidays. It's going to be a challenge and I appreciate all the suggestions. I'm also trying to see if there are pieces I can start to fit into my training now without jeopardizing my track season.

            2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race

            xor


              12 and 24 hour is all about staying upright and moving.  And nutrition.

               

              I would just say... run lots, mostly easy, don't worry much about "sometimes fast".  Spend a lot of time on your feet.

               

              And ponder the nutrition aspect.  My biggest issue when I moved from marathons to 50 milers was (and remains) nutrition.  Well, hydration too I suppose... but that's because I tied them together. First I went overboard. Then I scaled back.

               

              My biggest issue when dipping into fixed duration events (not counting 6 hour ones) is just the totally different vibe at such an event.  The temptation to take a siesta and a lunch break is strong.  And if that's what you want to do, that's a-ok.  Completely.  But if that isn't what you want to do, the temptation is BIG.  And getting started after a siesta can be hard.  The mental game is just different here. For me. 

               

              ymmv

               


              Uh oh... now what?

                Ray Krolewicz, one of the more successful U.S. ultramarathoners, has been

                known to advocate never running more than 20, or is it 22, miles for any one

                training run and doing as much as three short runs a day.

                 

                Pam Reed, overall Badwater winner, talks of doing multiple short runs because of busy days.

                Reed's book, "The Extra Mile" is an interesting story of her training approach.

                 

                You have plenty of time, but at some point focus will need to shift to

                the 12-hour or you will be introduced to the survival shuffle and its

                later companion, the death march---all good fun.

                 

                rgot


                Muddling through

                  John M - Now multiple short runs in a day sounds like something I could start incorporating now. That would help me establish a routine that I can build on later. Thanks for that pointer.

                  2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race


                  Muddling through

                    A brief progress report:

                    I've been consistently logging 30-33 miles weekly, sometimes up to 36 for a rolling 7 days, so I am getting in mileage increases. I also ran my first of several indoor track meets today and it showed some encouraging progress as well. I'd planned only a double in the mile and 800m, which is usually more than enough to leave me exhausted, but I "allowed" some other runners to talk me into running the 3000m after that. That I was even able to run that at tempo pace indicates I'm beginning to pick up some strength and endurance.

                     

                    I've also begun reading Relentless Forward Progress. Not too far into it yet, but it looks like it offers as much inspiration as it does training tips.

                    2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race

                      George, I only have one 24-hour attempt under my belt last April, and just have a few simple, but important pointers that I learned:

                       

                      -My 'racing' tendency kicked in, and I started out way too fast.  A big key will be for you to stay at a pace much slower than you have been used to running all these years!

                      -Also, it was mentioned up above, but the hours of "time on feet" when training is huge.  The more time on feet (even at quite slow speeds, to include jogging/walking mix) will help tons. It will really prepare your body for that longer duration type stuff and will certainly help the amount of distance you can cover on race day. Those 4 to 5 hour runs were mentioned and that sounds like a good amount of distance to cover in any single practice run in my opinion.

                      -Another tidbit is that the mind and body can do some really strange things after you have been on your feet 8+ hours!  Things will ache that have never ached before, and on the mental side, there comes a point for many where your mind is telling you very strongly to "quit!"  The above folks covered that one as well, but be ready for that part of the race if it comes!

                       

                      Those are the main points I can add, or +1 to what was said above already.  --- And assuming I have no injuries, I too will be at the NC-24 this fall and will see you there!

                      The Plan (big parts)→  /// April:  Hampton, VA 24 Hour Run for Cancer  ///   May:  3 Days at the Fair (12 Hour)  ///  Nov:  New York Marathon  ∞

                        Nice work, George. One of the things I've noticed over the years is that even shorter distance runners (or xc skiers) do better in their shorter distances as they do longer races and more. Most shorter distances have multiple heats, so it's not like running 800m and you're done. But you knew that. Enjoy your progress.

                        "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
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