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Daniels marathon plan on "lower" mileage (Read 155 times)


Sultan of slug

    Last fall I ran Pfitz's 18/55 program for a fall marathon, jumping in at week 5, and I improved dramatically. I'm thinking about giving Daniels's plan a go this year, both for variety's sake and because his focus on form and speedwork early in the season could be good for me.

     

    Problem is, Daniels clearly designs his plans for higher-mileage runners. Witness his suggestion that the LR peak at 25% of weekly mileage and last no longer than 2.5 hours - you'd have to be running 80 mpw to get up to 20 miles for the LR.  Unfortunately an injury has really kept me down since the winter, and I don't see myself running tons and tons of mileage for my fall marathon, despite my ambitions after last year's race.

     

    Has anyone had luck with Daniels maxing out in the 50-70 mpw range? Should someone looking to max out at about 60 mpw even bother running Daniels?


    Labrat

      I did his marathon plan last year, when training for a half on about 50 mpw.

       

      Its tough, but certainly doable.

       

      2.5 hours for me is about 15 miles, so not too far short of the 25%.

       

      You shouldn't need 20 mile long runs per se for marathon training.

      Indeed his whole schedule sort of de-emphasises the traditional long run.

       

       

      I was going to repeat it with a little higher average for a May marathon, but 2 months off with illness scuppered that.

      I'm doing so for a late fall race, currently trying to rebuild a base mileage, and I'll see what I can get up to.

      5K  23:21*  (Vdot 41.53)   10/13/12

      10K  51:48 (Vdot 38.39)  7/15/12

      HM 1:46:23 (Vdot 41.95) 11/9/13

      FM 4:28:33 (Vdot 33.01) 11/12/11

      *Gun time, all others are chip time

        25% or 2.5 hours is for all runners. Speed / mpw is not a requirement.

         

        If you are hurt, why train for a marathon? You might get more in the long term if you do his 5k-10k workouts.

         

        Witness his suggestion that the LR peak at 25% of weekly mileage and last no longer than 2.5 hours - you'd have to be running 80 mpw to get up to 20 miles for the LR.  

        Dont call it a comeback


        Muddling through

          I've run marathons maxing out in the 50-70 mpw range with no training runs over 16 miles or roughly 2 hours. That includes 5 marathons under the current 3:05 open men's BQ standard.

          2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race


          Sultan of slug

            Thanks for the input everyone. I appreciate hearing about your experiences with similar mileage on this plan.

             

            I was going to repeat it with a little higher average for a May marathon, but 2 months off with illness scuppered that.

            I'm doing so for a late fall race, currently trying to rebuild a base mileage, and I'll see what I can get up to.

            catwhoorg, what's your approach to building back mileage? I'm wondering about this myself. You could build it back up to some "decent" baseline, then jump into a nice, long quality training program (eg Pfitz 18/55 or Daniels phase II-IV), or spend a longer time building up a higher base and then doing an abbreviated training program at higher mileage (eg Pfitz 12/70 or a truncated Daniels plan). This would delay increasing the stress from "quality" and allowing you to increase the stress from "quantity" faster. What's your strategy? I'm still debating mine.

             

            If you are hurt, why train for a marathon? You might get more in the long term if you do his 5k-10k workouts.

            Simple: Revenge. 

             

            I trained for a sub-3 last year, which I realized was super ambitious. On race day, I figured "What the hell" - I didn't want to finish at 3:05 only to ask, "What if?" As my times below indicate, it didn't go so hot. And the race itself left me injured: I was so dead in the last 10k that my form completely fell apart, and the pounding did a number on my Achilles.

             

            My plan to run assumes that I am healed. I'm very slowly building mileage back up after some PT and several weeks in the 0-10 range.

             

             

            You might get more in the long term if you do his 5k-10k workouts.

            I've thought long and hard about this, and you very well may be right. A season focused on shorter races would give me the form and strength to make me an even better marathon runner (also, 10ks are fun).

             

            But I just don't see myself putting in a serious season of marathon training over the winter, especially before DST kicks in. Coming home from work only to go for a mid-week 14-miler in the dark? I probably wouldn't do it, especially because I usually do long runs on trails. I'm thinking that for me, winter/spring would be best for putting in like 40-50 mpw of fast running rather than 55-70 of slow running.

             

            Also, revenge.

            Longboat


            Letting off steam

              I think you could handle Daniels' program on around 60 mpw.   I have a lot of Daniels' framework in my own training, but don't go to 80 mpw. I consider the long run at 25% of total mileage a guideline over several weeks -- so at say 65-70 mpw my long runs might be 18, 14, 20, 16 on successive weeks.  
              On building base from a low level, I like to have all-easy mileage at the marathon program start week or more for several weeks in a row.    For you, coming off an injury, it will probably take longer than Daniels 6-week Phase 1.  Personal note: Be very careful building up after an achilles injury (see avatarRoll eyes).
              It depends how late in the fall you can make your marathon.  If it's December (CIM, for example), you could basebuild until the end of July then start Daniels' Phase II-IV.  If it's mid-October, you've got just that 6 weeks as of now.

              Neil

              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Nearly back to 100% 6 months after Achilles surgery. Now at 35 50 mpw.

              Base building time!


              Sultan of slug

                Target marathon is at the end of October, meaning Daniels phase I would start May 12. I won't be finished with my recovery plan until the end of May (again, Daniels's formula for coming back after a layoff). So really I could do a truncated Daniels plan that would give me 5 weeks of true base building (ie post-recovery base building), or do a longer base phase and bring in quality workouts later in the season.

                 

                Your heel looks brutal. Did you do this after you thought you recovered?

                Longboat


                Letting off steam

                  That plan may be manageable for you if you are able to build back without problems. As you know, not ideal, but you're constrained by the dates and injury.

                   

                  I spent 8 months messing around with a combination of rest, PT, Graston, stretch & strengthening, & more.  Several times, I got the OK to start running, but each time after a few weeks it would come back.  I eventually said "Enough!", got an MRI, which showed about a 60% tear.Shocked  So be careful, and make sure you know what you're really dealing with on an A.T. problem.  

                  For me, surgery to repair it was the only option with a good chance (90%) of full functionality.   So far, recovery is going great, but it's a long process - months to go. 

                  Neil

                  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Nearly back to 100% 6 months after Achilles surgery. Now at 35 50 mpw.

                  Base building time!