Advanced Marathoning, Pfitzinger Questions about the plans (Read 949 times)

     I'm not a fan of HR training.  I know lots love it.  I've tried it and hated it.  Maybe I will give it another go someday.


    It seems like you are leaving a lot up to what state you are in race morning.  What if its hot? What if you didn't sleep well last night? What if you are dehydrated a bit?


    I don't race with a heart rate monitor---I just train that way. What you posted above is exactly why it's good for training. Along with the removal of guesswork and having to do regular tune-up races to find out how you are improving, it does help you navigate through everyday stress. And stress is at the root of a lot of our problems as runners. If you have a hot day (e.g 75°Wink, and you're running by a fixed easy pace for a long run that you were doing in 50°. Well, that fixed easy pace in 75° is now close to marathon pace for a 75° day, let alone that your not acclimated. The HRM would slow you down on that day (might even have to walk a hill), and you wouldn't overwork yourself, and you'd get the same benefit as on a 50° at that faster pace. Same on days you are dehydrated and exhausted, those are stresses on the body. With a HRM, you will be slower on days when your body is tired and stresses--it helps prevent overtraining---though it can still happen.


    I did Pfitzinger and Douglas training (Advanced Marathoning), and used a HRM and his zones, and I never worried about pace, and I was running everything much, much faster at the same HR by the end of training, and never had to choose a pace.


    Not for everyone, I know,  and I always suggest the HRM with a "choose what you think is best for you, stay healthy, and have fun" attitude. I put it out there just in the case you never tried it.


    Good luck. Hope you PR! Cool



      I agree that we should be have run enough workouts that go well are too easy or we have toasted ourselves that we can run by feel.   


      I think you lost me here.

        DB: "I agree that we should be have run enough workouts that go well are too easy or we have toasted ourselves that we can run by feel."


        DB Translator: "I agree: we should accumulate a body of experience including runs that (a) go well; (b) are too easy or (c) we have toasted ourselves [in].  From these experiences can we learn to run by feel."

        "I want you to pray as if everything depends on it, but I want you to prepare yourself as if everything depends on you."

        -- Dick LeBeau


          It does not matter if I am doing 5x1200 on track or 5x5 minutes in the middle or a road or trail workout.  If I toast myself by the 3rd rep and cannot complete the workout - I overran the 1st 3 reps.  I have done that many times - less now than before.  Being in tune with how a pace feels and what the feeling or other signs that you are running a workout too fast is not that hard.  The goal of a speed workout is not to run as hard as you can, but to run a a speed comfortably - Running fast without straining - Finishing with a bit left in the tank -


          My point is that every day, T-Pace, Vo2 Max - Whatever the effort you want to run is a little different.  If you use data to force your pace - Basically doing everything by time 5x1600 in 5:30 - You often can run too slow or too fast.  If you learn what effort level you can maintain "Running fast without straining = smoothly for 5x1600 with a bit left in the tank at the end - You can use the data (Time) to give you feedback.


          I just get frustrated when someone is so hung up on time that they bag what could be a great workout because they might be running the 1st 1600 in 5:40, so toast themselves straining to get to 5:30 on #2 and bag it because its not their day.  Maybe 5:38-5:42 was ll they had that day and they just missed an opportunity to have a great workout.


          I do think every so often it is OK to push the envelope - Maybe every 5th or 6th workout of a certain type of workout.  Pick a day where you are feeling really good and pick an effort level that you can still run without straining - But it feels like you are on the edge.  Maybe you push to toasting ~ Now if you are racing regularly, this would not be needed, but if you are in a longer period without a race - I would do it.


          Just how I think

          7/20/17 #247 Comeback #19 ... 10/8 - Glacial Trail 50M




            Makes a lot of sense.  It is that other strength we need to use aside from muscles, wisdom & discipline.  Why is the ego so persuasive???  


            I knew I was dancing with the devil prior to starting my track workout this week because though I had the workout written on my index card (to prevent the old "oh, I couldn't remember my exact splits so I just did ... " but regardless, my brain started the thoughts like "that is kind of a wimpy pace - better just do it a little faster for the most bang for the buck" and "how am I ever going to improve if I don't get to the edge?"  and "what is my edge anyway?" yadee yahhh.


            LSS: instead of sticking to the plan - I did my 1st 3 mile repeats faster than prescribed, pushed through my hill repeats at the same pace, come the last set of mile repeats ... I instantly knew I made foolish move playing with the pace at the beginning of the workout ... my HR was off the charts & I felt like one leap from death ... NOT COOL!  Struggled through the last set & wanted a blankie and a binky by the time my cool down was done.  What the hell?!  Turned me to a heap of rubbish.  Ripple effect: Wed's run SUCKED.  Haven't gone out yet today but legs do not feel "fresh" and I wanted a good quality tempo run today ... ugh.  


            I can preach very well.  Other, less experienced runners who come to me for advice, get very good advice - that I am not following 1/2 the time.  I KNOW but don't always DO.  I annoy myself in this way!