Forums >General Running>Low Carb Fueling Question
Slow n' easy
For any of you on low carb diets - How do you fuel pre, during, and post long training runs? I'm talking maybe 13 miles or longer... (I'm also doing Low HR training so my max aerobic HR is 122 which necessitates a very slow pace - Meaning more hours on the feet to get the same mileage as I once did with higher HR max)
Bacon Party!
Depends on duration and intensity, not distance.
Depends on the adaptations you're trying to make - with the workout, the current block of training, etc.
Depends on training and recovery going in to and coming out of the workout.
Meaning - there is no prescription for a single training run in isolation.
How do I fuel?
Pre - nothing; either fasted or a normal meal 3 hours prior.
During - depends - often nothing for runs under 3 hours or so; sometimes amino acids, MCT, and/or some form of carbohydrate.
Post - depends; protein for sure.
MTA: more dependency
Liz
pace sera, sera
rectumdamnnearkilledem
I haven't run more than 5-6 miles doing ketogenic, but I have done 90 minutes on the indoor bike trainer. No problem. Moderate pace. I'm working with a 400-500 calorie/day deficit, but generally the low intensity stuff is fine. Not doing any intervals, yet. Pretty soon I'm going to be switching over to carb-cycling (and probably a deficit of 200-300 calories/day, on average), something like this, since I need to start doing speed training and upped mileage for some Spring duathlons and gravel road bike races with a ton of hills. I've dropped 13#s since new year's and have 15-20 to go.
Getting the wind knocked out of you is the only way to
remind your lungs how much they like the taste of air.
~ Sarah Kay
Just read the piece zoom linked to ... the recommendations seem obscenely high in protein (and rather fat-phobic) compared to everything else I've read (within and outside this realm).
Yeah, I was paying more attention to the overall calorie/carb recommendations. Too much protein is obviously not advantageous and also $$. It's hard to find a lot of info. re: carb-cycling that isn't aimed specifically at the weight-lifting crowd, as opposed to us endurance types.
The book "The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" may be helpful. (Available on Amazon...and a fairly quick but informative read.)
It's a very good read for anyone looking to do long-term ketogenic eating while engaging in longer distance endurance workouts/events.
Short answer -- I don't fuel long training runs anymore, pre, during, or post.
Long answer --
I have been low-carb high-fat (ketogenic) since September. It started as an experiment, to see how it would affect my ultra performance. I was somewhat skeptical, but intrigued enough to give it a fair shake. I met Stephen Phinney at a conference before Western States, and he gave me copies of his books "The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" and "The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance". After poring over them for a few months, I finally caved and dove in.
Well, as someone who used to live on pasta, and loves anything bready, I do miss them, but the benefits are now obvious, and I think I'm going to stick with it for at least a long while. I may go off it for short stretches now and then. I can now fuel ultras on about 100 cal/hour -- maybe less, I haven't tried. And mental fatigue late in a long race is just plain gone. This is a total game-changer for me; it essentially takes fueling off the table as an issue. And fueling is really the #1 issue once you get past 50 miles or so. I used to take in about 300 cal / hour. At a certain point, it becomes a real challenge getting those calories down. Now, not only do I not need to; the blood used to digest all that can be redirected to my muscles.
So. Long runs? I don't fuel them, period. But I rarely go past 20 in solo training runs. Longer, and I will find a marathon or a 50K, and for those I will take ~100 cal/hour. How to optimally fuel before a race while on LCHF is still something nobody really knows the answer to, I think. I am still experimenting. But it's clear I don't need a traditional carb load, anyway, which means off the line I am saving a few pounds of glycogen and water.
Post-run -- I may be wrong, but I think here not taking carbs is even more important. The thinking is that an influx of carbs will shut down a lot of the positive adaptations you want to happen, stimulated by high ketone levels, among other things.
Low-carb was just dandy for me until it wasn't.
2.5 years later, I'm still working my way out of the weeds.
It does seem to be tough on a lot of women; men appear to fare better. YMMV.
It's crazy how much fluid I retain on a SAD vs. the same # calories (or even more) keto. 4-7#s show up overnight when I've done carb refeeds and then take 4-7 days to resolve, even while keeping sodium low and water intake high. That's no small amount of weight on a 144# woman. I do really well on LCHF...until I try to do any really hard efforts. I see and feel no difference in my ability to plod out an easy/moderate run or cycling workout (other than my pace has improved by probably a solid 30 sec/mile at the same effort since the first of the year...but I've also dropped 14#s). But if I try to come close to 5k effort or faster it just doesn't happen...and I get queasy. Could be keto, probably just as likely the 400-500 cal/day deficit I'm logging.
Now that I'm starting to structure my workouts beyond basic Winter fitness maintenance I'm researching carb-cycling more. I'm looking to work it around my typical Summer schedule, which ends up with a really hard Tues. PM bike ride (rolling with some big dog dudes, frequently cruising at 24+mph -- should be easier this year than last, though, with the lighter physique). A similar ride on Thurs. PM. I'd be jacking the carbs up on my 2 highest effort days, so these days would be obvious candidates. Or just one of those days and whichever day I choose for my brick workout (goal olympic distance du in mid-July). Weight loss is still sort of the primary goal, though. I still have another ~15-20 to be where I'd like. Hoping I might see that by end of Summer, though hard training and weight loss have never been something I've managed concurrently.
I wish there were more research/BTDT with carb cycling and endurance activities. There's actually a fair number more people who have had great success with keto and long endurance stuff than with carb-cycling. Lots of crossfitters and weight-lifters who CKD/TKD, but somewhat a dearth of endurance folks.
I wonder how much of this is keto vs. calorie deficit. I wonder if you' d do better overall once you are at the weight you would like to be at.
For me, after numerous attempts at getting back on the eating better/exercising consistently wagon, I restarted keto on Monday and restarted a learn to run program yesterday. I didn't want to jump back in to running where I stopped because I want to improve my consistency and I figured the best way to do that would be to start small and rebuild. Easy for me to say "no way I can run 10k right now" very hard to say "I just cannot walk run 30 minutes on my treadmill while watching curling"
But the point being we'll see how well it goes starting from minimal running and sticking to keto.
First or last...it's the same finish line
HF #4362
That's what I wonder, too. On any 400-500 calorie/day deficit a person is going to not have a lot of gas for hard efforts, I suspect, even if they're eating an abundance of carbs.
I wonder how much of this is keto vs. calorie deficit. I wonder if you' d do better overall once you are at the weight you would like to be at. But the point being we'll see how well it goes starting from minimal running and sticking to keto.
I'm betting you do very well. Weight loss and hard training aren't good bedfellows, so you are smart to take it easy for a while. Last night we did a Sufferfest cycling workout on the nowhere bikes and I was shaky all over -- not just my legs. I've not been able to train hard this Winter, so I'm kind of nervous about how our gravel road tandem race will go in a couple of weeks. DH has only been cleared to resume activities after foot surgery for a few weeks, so he's also undertrained. And this is a VERY hard, VERY hilly race. It's probably gonna be pretty ugly, heh.