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Aerobic training plan help (Read 124 times)

Mic1


    Hi, I have decided to work on my Aerobic base for a few months and wanted a little advice to try and get the most out of it.

     

    First up, I usually play a social game of soccer each week, which depending on which website you believe, could be not bad for me at all, right up to really bad. After the game I feel about the same as though I have done a hard but not super hard run. I would like to know from any expert here if it is still fine to keep this, or should I really stop playing for a few months while in this training phase? The second question to do with this, is should I have a rest day before or after playing soccer to get the most out of my training?

     

    My MAF heartrate is supposed to be around 135. I am 45 years old, and my max heartrate I have seen over the last year was actually while playing soccer (does this still count) at 186. I know its better to go lower than higher, but how much variation on this rate of 135 do you have (in particular going up) before you really start to loose the training effect. Is going up by 5 or even 10bpm for short periods fine, or do I need to be really careful to never to over the 135 when going up hills and while running while its warmer? I have just started doing some slower runs, playing around with different heart rates for different speeds, so am getting better at keeping my heart rate steady, but still not super steady at this stage because the park I usually run around has a little incline and decline and is also partially in shade, but the majority in sun which means my speed has to change to keep my heart rate similar.

     

    Also, what is the ideal length and amount of training sessions I should be aiming for each week while doing this kind of training? Many sites indicate that 1 or 2 runs per week of 90mins plus is good, along with shorter runs as well. I am probably not capable of running too far in a day, but is there a recommend maximum amount to do in a day, eg 2 or 2.5 or 3 hrs? I think from what I have read, generally the more kms you can do each week the better, but is this best to do a variety of runs lengths, or how the kms are made up is not really important. Currently I am doing 2-4 runs of about 10kms each week. The easiest way for me to increase this would be to increase each daily run by a little, try hard to make sure I do 4 runs a week, and then also do one longer run every week as well. This would mean that now I would try to do say 10,10,10, 15 kms runs each week, but then slowly increasing to say 15,15,15,20. Does this sound like a good idea?

    DaBurger


      If you enjoy the soccer, keep the soccer,

       

      if your too tired the day after playing soccer, take a day off, if not, your choice.

       

      If you're just building general aerobic base, you don't really need to go past 90 minutes in any particular run, this can change if you're training for a race.

       

      If you have the opportunity, it's probably better to run more days a week than it is to up your mileage/day especially if you're averaging >10k per day already but if your schedule doesn't allow it, you've got to do what you can.

       

      Just run, keep it simple.

      Know thyself.

       

      Mic1


        Thanks for that information.

        I am still playing around with pace a little, but to keep heart rate under 135 average, my pace is probably going to be 7 to 7.30 mins per km depending on temperature/sleep/how I feel which is really slow since I can do 10km runs at a pace of 4.45 mins per km, but I know it starts off painfully slow but then should increase over time.

        Just so I have it right, would you recommend just slightly increasing my daily runs, to a maximum of about 90 mins (this should be easy enough as I already am running at a slower pace for about 1hr 15 mins), and then still do one slightly longer run each week?

        Also, do you know how important it is to stick exactly to the 135 or lower heart rate? I am getting better judging this, today maxed out at 140, and did a run at average 134.

        I just figure, if I am going to the trouble of running slower for a few months, I might as well try and do it the best possible way.

         

        Thanks again.

         

        Mic.

        corland


          Squeeze in as many runs in as you can each week,  5-8k runs are completely fine.  Look to accomplish a mid week medium run of 90 minutes.  Run a longer run toward the end of the week.  There's probably not a lot of use in running more than 2 hours at one time, unless you're training for a marathon.  Anything over 2 hours will likely have significant impact on you in the days after.

           

          Inch your weekly mileage up by adding more runs, focus less on killing yourself to reach 90 minutes multiple times per week.

          FerKjl


            A little appropriate necroposting here.

             

            I'm in almost the same situation as the OP.  I'm 46 years old, healthy, 1.80m and 79kg.  Been very sedentary for the last 5 years, and got back to decent shape this year.  I got a Garmin VivoActive 3, a chest strap, and started running some 5 weeks ago.

             

            I started off with 2.5k, then 3, 3.5, 5, and before going to 10 I got a lactate test.  According to it my threshold is 147, but the doc said that I should feel comfortable running around 80% of the time up to 150 or so.  My measured VO2Max was measured at 43.9.

             

            I'm now running 10K.  I could do more, but I'm being careful.  Unfortunately my cadence and pace, at or below 150, are quite slow: 7:13min/km, running are around 155spm (you can see all the details of my runs in my profile).  Either pushing stride length or cadence brings me quickly above 150 bpm.  I'm assuming that I just need patience to build my aerobic base.

             

            The question I have to the collective knowledge of RunningAhead is: what would you estimate I would need to build it up so I can do a decent pace below 150 bpm?  Another few weeks?  A few months?

             

            I'm getting a little restless running SO SLOW.  

              We all respond differently, so take this accordingly.  I used Maffetone about 15 years ago, shortly after I started running.  My hazy recollection is that my MAF pace was about 15 min/mile, and that it improved by about one min/mile every month.  Improvement stopped when my training pace reached about 9.5 to 10 min/mile.  My current training pace is about 9.8 to 10 min/mile at age 68, running by effort and recording heart rate after the run.

              FerKjl


                Thnx, JR.  Today I ran my first 10K with a decent cadence (6 out of the 10 laps over 163 spm), with my HR completely under control.   Today's pace wasn't a LOT better, but consistently better (the last four 10K I had 7:31, 7:23, 7:13 and today 7:04 min/km / 12:05, 11:38, 11:28 and today 11:20 min/mi).   At a constant improvement run-by-run for the next few weeks, even if it's 5 seconds better, I hope I'll reach my short-term goal of 6:30min/km (or 10:30/mi) before the end of winter. 

                AndyTN


                Overweight per CDC BMI

                  Fer,

                   

                  I don't know if that is you on the mountain bike in your profile picture but if you have a passion for cycling, use that as cross training to get up your aerobic capacity. I rode my bike or went to spin class 2-3 times per week when I first started becoming a serious runner to get up my endurance as quickly as possible. The only problem for me is that I had not yet discovered the benefit of the recovery run and was pushing myself too hard on running days. The bike days and fast running ended up increasing my aerobic capacity/endurance faster than my legs could support and I started getting shin splints. You have to build the weekly mileage slowly adding 10-15% each week as long as no pain in your joints/muscles.

                   

                  If you don't currently have any lower body injuries/pain, mix in the bike for an hour a couple days a week. Keep the HR in the aerobic range too so you can use it as recovery from running. Mileage on your feet is still king but the bike can be secondary help with your aerobic goals and weight loss. Losing another 10-15 lbs will help make the running pace easier but it isn't like you have a ton of weight to lose. I echo what others have already said but I'm just throwing out the cross training benefits with the bike.

                  Memphis / 38 male

                  5k - 20:39 / 10k - 43:48 / Half - 1:34:47 / Full - 3:38:10

                  FerKjl


                    Thnx, Andy. Your advice sounds solid.  Luckily I had already read about it some weeks ago, and I switched my hometrainer cross-training routine from endurance to more cardio (in other words, lowered the resistance quite significantly, so that I can pedal at 20mi/h for about an hour).  I don't really have plans to lose any more weight (I weight 175lb and I'm 5'11") other than whatever a much more active lifestyle than in recent years will bring, but I do lift some weights after biking, so a slighly increased body muscle composition should let me shed those last 5lb you mentioned quite easily.  Just not actively pursuing it.   Thnx for the good advice !

                      Can you share your actual blood lactate test results and the method used for that?  It might tell me more about the kind of athlete you are.

                       

                      Lactate testing although extremely valuable (more than VO2 max in my opinion) will not accurately give you a definitive heart rate training zone for aerobic training.  This varies from one individual to another and is somewhat of a moving target even within a training session.

                       

                      As an example you might climb a hill and boost your heart rate over 170 for a period of time and not build lactate to a level that would rob you of your aerobic training for that session.  I would not advise my athletes to worry about going over 135 on a hill as that sounds like a very slow pace.

                       

                      Also, what are your overall end goals?  800/1500? 5k? 10K?  Marathon?

                      FerKjl


                        Absolutely !  And thank you for the "athlete".   The results were in German, so I translated them.

                         

                        Lactate curve

                         

                        Summary

                         

                        HR Zones

                         

                        Regarding your questions, I don't have a specific goal.  If anything, I'd like to be able to run a marathon by summer next year, around June/July.  But I would set an intermediate goal for a half around March/April.

                          Awesome!

                           

                          They did a great job with this combining the VO2 max test and heart rate at the same time.  Way better than I thought it was going to be, but I should know better because German physiologists are among the best in the world.

                           

                          Looking at this it's safe for me to say that you are more of a slow twitch muscle reliant athlete topping out under 12.  Yes, you are an athlete!!

                           

                          I don't feel you can get too out of control with lactate when running a hill.  Although their is a lag in build up at 154 BPM it looks like for 3 minute duration at that effort your levels did not spike that much.  Typically a hill would be far less than that.

                           

                          Heat is another issue and you are right to try to stay in the zone for this.

                          FerKjl


                            Yeah, the sport scientist that did the test is a runner himself, and organizes "marathon seminars" twice a year.  I will sign up for the next one starting in January, if COVID allows.  He kept the HR monitor on me during the treadmill test, while breathing through the spyrometer, and he kept taking blood samples from my right ear lobe every 3 minutes.  It was very straight-forward, and he debriefed me right after.   I'll repeat the test in a few months, to see if I'm making good progress.

                             

                            Your comments regarding the hill and the heat are also going to be useful for @Mic1, the original poster on this thread (which I kind of hijacked).  My question was more: how long does your experience and intuiton tell you that I would need to improve my cadence and overall pace, while keeping HR under control?  Are we talking a few weeks, a few months, or several months?

                              The time period in which those changes occur are individual.

                               

                              Your stride length will increase naturally over time with training.  You don't want to attempt to change this in anyway or you will inevitably over stride and increase braking forces which will make you less efficient and in most cases will reduce your stride frequency.  When I have an athlete that is faster, without checking into it that much I know their stride length has increased.  Training will change this.  We do some things like short hills with big rest to improve power/weight ratios but generally the stimulus for change is more global.

                               

                              Stride rate does not change all that much for most over time and for some not at all.  It can be done, but it takes great dedication and patience to basically rewire your neural connections to make this happen.  It can take 6-12 months of consistent running to pull it off.  Keep in mind that if you do start working on this your stride length will initially shorten.  This is not necessarily a bad thing.  I am convinced the best way to do this is to download songs that have a beat of around 180 per minute and land to the rhythm.  However, if you choose to increase your stride rate you will inevitably land more mid - fore foot.  I am making the assumption and maybe wrongly that you heal strike?  Some will tell you this is ideal (if you look at it from a physics standpoint it is) but for you it might lead to a host of injuries if you make the change too soon because your body is not developed to run like that.  So now your Achilles tendon and calf muscles are strained more than you can handle so you have to dial the volume back to almost the beginning and rebuild from there.

                              FerKjl


                                I am making the assumption and maybe wrongly that you heal strike?

                                 

                                Fair assumption. After the lactate test they put a high speed camera and made a few shots of my running (I think they did it as a freebie, as I didn't get this €80 add-on, which is why I didn't get copies or a detailed debriefing).  I have a good posture and I have a very slight heel strike, more like a mid-heel-strike.  They recommended that I try to make slightly shorter strides, to keep a more mid-foot landing and keep better overall balance, which I've been doing.

                                 

                                I'm really looking forward to my 10K tomorrow.  Yesterday I did intervals, and today I took a day off (it's pouring, and I've been working all day).  Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings. 

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