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Fix that Fade (Read 2158 times)

    Skinnyfish/Sean,  Thanks for taking the time to analyze my goals (to all others as well).  I too think those 2 days off which were not by choice, were a contributing factor, but should not have mattered a great deal.  I use the treadmill to get a quick easy workout at Lunch  I use it as progression run, to help with having to stare a wall, pushing buttons every 2 -3 minutes gives the mind something to look forward to. Will use one of those TM runs to do the workout you suggested.

     

    My goal race is Grandfather Marathon in July and this HM was supposed to be a fitness check for training paces and ultimately setting a Marathon goal pace and if my 4 hour goal is reasonable. 

     

    I am torn between working on speed or endurance, as I thought speed is not my problem as much as endurance and aerobic fitness as those 14 mile long runs are still a struggle the last couple of miles.  From the comments of those helping me on these thread looks like I need to work on holding pace for a while (speed endurance?), and finishing strong.

     

    Paul/Yapper,

    Regarding my latest workout, I am sure the first and last miles were slower and I probably ran hard only about 5 miles in the middle.  This being a rolling course with short but sharp hills, those downhills probably beat me up and I ran a race on Saturday and did a speed workout Monday hence the trashed feeling,  will take it easy for a couple of days. 

      My wife has run several half marathons between 1:50-1:52.  Last year she  ran her first Marathon right at 4 hours.  I think your HM times definately indicate a 4 hour marathon.  We gradually built her up to a 3+ hour long run started around 10 min/mile and gradually moved towards 9:15/mile towards the end.  She also found a group to do track workouts with once/week that included 3 miles of intervals which for her were done at 6:30 to 7:30 pace depending on the distance.  Generally 400-1600 meter intervals and the pace slowed as distance was added. 

      I strongly believe that these workouts made her marathon pace feel much more comfortable.  We have an marathon coming up mid May and are doing 6 weeks of speed work, followed by another 6 weeks of strength (longer intervals) 1-3 miles for the intervals and up to 6 miles total volume.  I am hoping that she reaches the Boston Qualifying time of 3:40 as next year it just gets harder.

       

      My point is your 4 hour goal is right on track.

        I just started doing some intervals as suggested in this thread, and I am surprised at the speed gain I seem to have gotten from just a few of these workouts. Will see if that helps in my upcoming Half marathon this weekend. 

         

        I do have a question though, is there any point consciously trying to lengthen your stride on a couple of 400 M intervals.  May not be the most efficient form of running for me currently and might result in a slower interval but would that work similar to bounding drills? or is this a recipe for injury and I better stick to bounding drills for 50-60 Meters and let the stride length take care of itself over time.

          I just started doing some intervals as suggested in this thread, and I am surprised at the speed gain I seem to have gotten from just a few of these workouts. Will see if that helps in my upcoming Half marathon this weekend. 

           

          I do have a question though, is there any point consciously trying to lengthen your stride on a couple of 400 M intervals.  May not be the most efficient form of running for me currently and might result in a slower interval but would that work similar to bounding drills? or is this a recipe for injury and I better stick to bounding drills for 50-60 Meters and let the stride length take care of itself over time.

           

          Leave bounding for bounding and intervals to intervals. Bounding up hills is an excellent plyometric work out. Run your 400s at a stride that feels right. BTW, a couple 400s are fine but you don't need to kill yourself with these. A simple 4 X 200m fast after your quality day (s) and some fast striders another day, is all the true speed work you need for marathon training FOR YOU!

           

          As far as fading in a race. I have never ever ran more than 25 miles a week and have had a negative split on every half marathon race I have done. I also don't do a ton of quality work (not because I don't want to). Doing quality work vs not costs me about 2 min in the half - 1:32 vs 1:30.

           

          Racing strategy is huge huge huge!!! If you are crashing, it is probably either a too fast of a start with early anaerobic overload or overestimating your fitness. For me, my first two miles in a half are my slowest paced miles. These are not slow but about 10 sec slower than my goal pace or finishing pace but it eases me into the half. I actually try to hold back a bit but with the adrenaline, I am not that far off from goal pace. With a 5K left, I run the remainder of the half like a 5K. I am hurting like heck but feel I have a little bit of a gear left or I just go get it. Remember, this is "race" and you have to dig deep. You will be amazed at what your body will do. I truely believe some of us succumb to pain and discomfort and weak mind. You have to go get it and it is easier to go get it if you race smart. Of course, miles and smart training make all this easier too. Toward end, you have to push. I generally have something left. This may mean only a 5-10 sec per mile pace increase but by last mile it is all guts and can run it 15-20 sec faster and still crank it the last 200 yds. This more than makes up for a conservative start. Without a controlled start, most runners I coach or friends I know are hanging on for dear life and fade poorly. My buddy runs a 5K around the same time as me or close. He races out on a half all the time. I usually pass him by mile 2 beat him by 6-8 minutes. He won't listen to me. I find it very difficult for runners I have coached to follow my recommended racing strategy with a controlled start. They simply cannot do it. Frustrates the heck out of me, but with experience comes better races.

          Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!


          day after day sameness

            No mate...that's not fade.  You wanna see fade?  Check this log entry's splits out.

             

            eff it...

            I've done my best to live the right way; I get up every morning and go to work each day...

              Ha, I know the feeling, if you compare notes, I think we are in the same neighborhood.  One of these days I'll figure out how to run the HM, I've only run a dozen of them so far, guess that's not enough.


              Fast is better than long

                Kind of merging Daniels and Macmillan ... Daniels likes tempo runs to be in the 20 to 40-45 (can't remember) minute range.  Macmillan talks about stretching them out and renames them steady-state workouts.  Both guys advocate slowing the pace as the workout lengthens.  Daniels even presents a chart with "tempo pace" (which is the 20min pace) and various slower paces corresponding to longer timed tempo runs.  Long way of saying that 8mi @ tempo pace is too high an effort compared to what Daniels describes as "tempo".

                 

                I'll again plug the progressive or fast-finish runs.  TT had me doing them in the 8-12 mile range: first half easy pace, second half gently quickening.  The idea isn't to be going 5k race pace at the end, but just to build over the tired portion of the run and get your mind used to bearing down incrementally more as you go.  I really liked them, and I think they were helping me negative-split my races.

                 

                @Clive (or anyone else with opinions), As I read this it would appear that at my pace 2:51 marathon target Macmillan has me at:

                6:13-6:23 Steady State

                5:57-6:13 Tempo

                 

                So based upon the minutes above, MacMillain looks to be saying under 6.5/7 miles should be Tempo and over that should be Steady State.  Am I connecting the dots correctly there?

                 

                I assume there is a pro-rating, that as I approach 6.5/7 miles I should be aproaching the upper slow end of the 5:57-6:13 range. and similarly in the steady state range as I run longer distances?

                 

                Thanks,

                Paul

                2014 Goals: 2500 miles / sub 2 800m / 4:30 mile / sub 16:30 5K


                Give a man a fire and he'll be warm the rest of the night;
                Set a man afire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

                What in the Jehu?

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