2018 Sub-3. No rules. Run. (Read 745 times)

    Reeves no Im happy your calf is good. Im new to calf injury so dont know how far to push it. Its past been able to run on it through discomfort now as it gets worse.

     

    Jmac I guess hills utilise different muscle groups and actually give flat running muscles a little relief.

     

    Concrete/asphalt ah the old forum debate is one softer than the other 

    Personally give me asphalt anyday.

    50+ PBs5k 18:29 Tauranga Parkrun May18   

    10k 40:16 June 18

    " I have a plan to make my legs longer by wearing shorter shorts "      

     

    JMac11


      Training question I hadn't fully considered before:

       

      How does sleep impact our training when doing doubles? Take these two scenarios. One of them would be considered a double, scenario A, yet the other wouldn't, Scenario B. However, Scenario B has a much shorter turnaround time.

       

      A) 10 miles at 5 AM, 10 miles at 9 PM

      B) 10 miles at 9 PM, 10 miles at 5 AM the following day

       

      Does sleep have that much of an impact on us that A is much more difficult than B, even though you are completing B with 8 hours less in between runs? The reason I'm asking this question is I find myself often doing something like B, but I can't imagine scheduling something like A into my calendar. Is this an issue, i.e. is it turning my easy runs into something more than easy?

       

      It's pretty easy to say yes sleep has that much of an impact, but wondering if anyone has more info on this.

      5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 36:21 (9/18)  |  HM: 1:20:39 (5/17)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

       

      Next Race: Joe Kleinerman 10K (1/5/19)

      Goal Race: Boston (4/15/19)

        I go to bed at 9pm so cant help sorry 

        50+ PBs5k 18:29 Tauranga Parkrun May18   

        10k 40:16 June 18

        " I have a plan to make my legs longer by wearing shorter shorts "      

         

          JMac - not sure what you are trying to accomplish with those doubles and those times. Why not to make runs 5:30AM and 5:30PM? Why 10 miles each? The time between maybe only important if those workouts are intense, if not and you will be running by effort, then I don't think it's really matter. It also doesn't matter I think if you do it once. Anyway, so far your specs just do not make much sense...

          JMac11


            Well I generally can’t run within 12 hours of each other during the day time because of work, but let’s just simplify it for now and then get to the more complicated version.

             

            A) 10 miles at 5 AM and 5 PM

            B) 10 miles at 5 PM and 5 AM the following day

             

            Same question: A is viewed as a double, and a very difficult one at that, but B is not. Does the fact that we are getting sleep in our 12 hour break in B make that much of a difference?

            5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 36:21 (9/18)  |  HM: 1:20:39 (5/17)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

             

            Next Race: Joe Kleinerman 10K (1/5/19)

            Goal Race: Boston (4/15/19)

              My speculation is the laying down has an outsized impact. In addition, the mental reset from sleeping probably does have an impact, even if the muscles haven't fully recovered/repaired themselves.

               

              But I'm not a doctor or anything close, so this is really just a wild guess.

              mattw4jc


                Well I generally can’t run within 12 hours of each other during the day time because of work, but let’s just simplify it for now and then get to the more complicated version.

                 

                A) 10 miles at 5 AM and 5 PM

                B) 10 miles at 5 PM and 5 AM the following day

                 

                Same question: A is viewed as a double, and a very difficult one at that, but B is not. Does the fact that we are getting sleep in our 12 hour break in B make that much of a difference?

                 

                It's an interesting question, and even more so if you consider your first example of 8 hours of sleep between runs vs 16 hours of being awake. I would think that sleep is better recovery than going to work, but not necessarily 8 hours better. But in reality too you'd have less than 8 hours of sleep - assuming the run starts at 9pm - done at 10:15/:30 - shower and bed by 11pm. Up at 4:30am to start running again at 5am. Yea, that sounds rough.

                 

                I sometimes do a morning and evening double, but more like 5 + 5 or 5 + 6 all easy miles. Even then getting up for a run the next morning is tough.

                Andres1045


                  Well I generally can’t run within 12 hours of each other during the day time because of work, but let’s just simplify it for now and then get to the more complicated version.

                   

                  A) 10 miles at 5 AM and 5 PM

                  B) 10 miles at 5 PM and 5 AM the following day

                   

                  Same question: A is viewed as a double, and a very difficult one at that, but B is not. Does the fact that we are getting sleep in our 12 hour break in B make that much of a difference?

                  It seems hard for me to view it in isolation to the rest of the week.

                   

                  B would generally not be too bad if you're just doing a one off morning run, when you typically run in the afternoon. While that one run would be rough, you'd have 36 hours to recover.  Example:

                   

                  Sun - 10mi @ 5pm

                  Mon - 10mi @ 5pm

                  Tue - 10mi @ 5am

                  Wed - 10mi @ 5pm

                   

                  Where as A would similarly not be that bad if your intention was to take the next day off after your double.  You'd still have a full 36 hours off (if a morning runner, and even more if an evening runner).

                   

                  But to me (and take this for what it's worth, since I'm neither a high mileage runner or a doubler), doubling only seems to make since once you're running over 80+ miles per week and 7 days a week.  And so if that's the boat you're in, you will always have both scenarios A and B if you're adding in a run of 10 miles to your otherwise normal 10 mile daily run.

                   

                  Maybe I'm missing something.

                  Upcoming races:  Houston HM (January 2019) | A Spring 2019 Marathon (Brighton?)

                  JMac11


                    Thanks for the input guys, keep it coming! I ask this question because I am often doing this. I am an after work runner, but sometimes I need to run in the morning due to other obligations the following day. So for example, I ran 11 miles last night and then got up this morning to do another 11. I could never imagine doing 22 miles of doubles in one day, even if I took the same rest period (10 hours as was my case last night).

                     

                    ZZ - I do think sleeping has an impact. Would be interesting if we could quantify it.

                     

                    Matt - I agree. I find getting up the next morning for a run after doing an evening run to be very difficult.

                     

                    Andres - The rest of the week certainly matters. Similar to your schedule you put in there, would you find the Wednesday night run easier than a run where you had your normal 24 hours of rest? Does the extra 12 hours, even though you're awake during it, make a difference? I ask because I often view my schedule, as I think most people do, based on a calendar, so I wouldn't even consider that extra 12 hours of rest.

                    5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 36:21 (9/18)  |  HM: 1:20:39 (5/17)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

                     

                    Next Race: Joe Kleinerman 10K (1/5/19)

                    Goal Race: Boston (4/15/19)

                    Andres1045


                       

                      Andres - The rest of the week certainly matters. Similar to your schedule you put in there, would you find the Wednesday night run easier than a run where you had your normal 24 hours of rest? Does the extra 12 hours, even though you're awake during it, make a difference? I ask because I often view my schedule, as I think most people do, based on a calendar, so I wouldn't even consider that extra 12 hours of rest.

                      I would think the extra 12 hours would help, but I guess I'm not really the right person to ask. I hardly ever run at night, so it always sucks to me when I need to run after work.

                       

                      On a somewhat different note, even though it feels like crap running in the afternoon, I seem to have an easier time getting up to speed.  I tend to run real early in the morning and the first mile is often times slower than 9m/m (with the first half of that really slow).  In the afternoons, I'm rarely interested in running, but the first mile often is easily under 8 (even though it feels way slower).

                      Upcoming races:  Houston HM (January 2019) | A Spring 2019 Marathon (Brighton?)

                      Andres1045


                        Also, I'm just remembering this (and don't really know where it fits in), last year I did a few Tuesday night track workouts.  So my normal running routine would be a morning run every morning. Then for several weeks I added in a Tuesday afternoon workout (which would end up being around 9 miles with about 3 miles worth of 5k paced stuff).  The Wednesday morning runs after that were a joke. I could barely move. The workout itself was fine.

                        Upcoming races:  Houston HM (January 2019) | A Spring 2019 Marathon (Brighton?)

                          JMac - sorry, I still don't think you provide enough information to really help you with  your question. What I mean:

                           

                          - if I run 10 miles in the morning and 10 miles in the evening at a comfortable pace, then it doesn't matter how the runs are placed

                          - if I run first 10 miles run with high intensity and second at a comfortable pace, then I would guess the more time in between runs you have the better

                          - if you run both 10 miles runs at high intensity, you need to see a mental doctor - because you don't do that - I remember only one workout like this - I think it's Daniels? (not sure) where you run something like this (for some reason I remember 12 miles number) in the morning and then in the evening - but that is like an ultimate, once in a cycle, workout and it's a killer one and not everybody could that (I don't remember many people were doing it but I remember somebody from old RWOL was doing it)

                           

                          Again, back in 2016 I was running 13 miles in the morning and 13 miles in the evening (back and forth from work) for couple of months (not every day - tried to listen to my body - but sometimes 3-4 days in a row) and at a comfortable pace I was able to do that running at 5:40 am and back at 6pm - so, basically it was around 12 hours in between.

                           

                          But. per Pfitz, if you do doubles - do something like 7/8 and 5/6 morning/evening at a comfortable pace - those are recovery doubles.

                          Nimmals


                            CalB - thanks buddy nice run as well considering your setback.  You know its an unknown course when my tangents don't equal 26.2. I'm guessing this is humor.

                            "You are just messing with us - everybody knows that CIM is one fast easy downhill course, not tough at all, all you need to do is to follow the gravity..."

                             

                            This is the truth. Its more sawtooth than down hill. I was not expecting that.

                            "One more note and that one is about the course - it's actually mentally hard to see and run uphills and downhills for 21 miles and those uphills and downhills are not short - they might be 0.3-0.5 miles long - especially hard they are when you are not ideally prepared - I am pretty sure for runners who are ready they are pretty insignificant, especially if you know what to expect and ran that course before."

                             

                             

                            JTReeves - Thanks you and yes this was a PR for me. My goal was to hit or just get under 2:30. I had no idea the course was a roller it rolled down hill but look at elevation profile its like saw teeth he whole way until it gets flat. PR was  A long time coming too, since my last PR was from 2014.

                             

                            Swim5599 - Congrats on an awesome race. I didnt realize you were the same person. Haha I'm so sorry. you're at an advantage living and training with the Bruces.

                             

                            Finbad  - thanks buddy!

                             

                            Weatherboy80  thank you. You are not TnWeather correct.

                             

                            JMAC - thanks my man.

                             

                            mt79 - Yes I'm running Boston as a guide. Me my team and GabbyTriboy. 2:40 goal but don't tell him yet.

                            weatherboy80


                              Nope TN_weather and I are not the same people!  We are both in the weather field though 🙂

                              5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

                              slingrunner


                                JMac- personaly I find it very hard to run the morning after running a late night run.  I would prefer to double A.M./P.M. of the same day, unless I'm completing the 1st run by 3PM or so.

                                 

                                I tried some speed work at the track today... first effort since my marathon. My metatarsal feels fine now, but that's expected... I'm hoping not too bad tomorrow.  It is improving for me, but realistically it was still probably better the day before my marathon then it is now.

                                5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)