Goal of Sub-3 Hour Marathon (Read 15818 times)

    I think of a load of miles @ MP as pretty useless - yes I have done it in the past.

     

    Its too fast to be easy and so the recovery is long

     

    Its too slow to affect LAT

     

    <snip>

     

    When I quit running long MP workouts, I got a bit faster.

     

    Just my 2-cents

     

    I generally subscribe to this line of thinking in marathon training. Like Dopple Bock, for me, it comes down to bang-for-buck training stimulus. With my limited amount of mileage (55-65 mpw on average), I have a lesser proportion of quality each week so I opt for the T-pace.

     

    I'll add another take on the idea to limit or eliminate MP from a marathon schedule:

     

    Making an assumption that a marathon trainer will make a fitness improvement over the course of a training cycle (I.e. increase of one or two VDOT levels), consider the utility of running MP @ pace x, only to have your fitness improve to a new level. If a runner is performing MP training at "current fitness" training paces, and in the taper/sharpening phase the fitness level might improve another notch or half-notch, what is the benefit of the volume of MP at the previous fitness level?

     

    I admit that this scenario might exist more for less experienced marathoners but I attest that that is what's happened for me.

     

    Another wrinkle with doing more T-pace than MP, I find that I know where my "governor" is for avoid going out too fast too soon. My intimate familiarity with T-pace has helped in the marathon race to avoid making any pace mistakes in the early miles.

     

    I imagine that if I ran more overall volume that I'd run more MP miles, but it is not the case right now.

      I've been more of a lurker than participator here, but I do have a relative race upcoming - racing HM on this weekend.

       

      At one time I was planning a fall marathon but opted out. I've maintained 50-60 mpw over the summer/fall and raced two 5-milers and one 5k. Not sure if I'd break 3:00 marathon at this time but I'm tabling that goal until Boston in April.

       

      Aiming for a sub 1:23 HM on Sunday, which might be a stretch since I haven't raced longer than 5 miles since the spring. But a 17:37 five-km, four weeks ago has me hopeful. The 1:23 goal is pure vanity, aiming for a chance at the NYCM lottery bypass. My previous best was 1:23:38 in November of last year, coming four weeks after 2:58 in October.

       

      I had a confidence building workout 8 days ago - 4x 2 miles @ goal HM-pace, which was 6:19-6:20 per mile. It is a bit daunting to think about stringing 13 of those together, but I'm putting it out here and will report back after the race.

       

       

       

        roots - a 1:23 definitely sounds like a reasonable goal after a 17:37 5k.  I'm almost a minute slower than that for 5k and did a 1:23:47 half.  just go out there and run those 6:19 miles and don't slow down!
        - the grisly details http://alansmiles.blogspot.com
        Ger


          Roots a 1.23 is definitely on, when I ran 1.22.29 this year I went off arount 6.24/6.25 pace for the first 3 miles and then slowly picked it up for the next 8 and let it rip for the last 2.1 and ran sub 6 for the last 2 miles. At least this way if you go off a little conservatively and are feeling the pace too hot you can re-evaluate to a 1.24. If you go off too fast you could end up at 1.26/27... There's no better feeling than coming home strong.

           

          Any ideas lads on how best to achieve a sub 60min 10 mile???

            Probably running 5:59/mile pace would be the best way to achieve this. (Sorry I just feeling like being an ass   ). I'm still in the post-marathon, my running sucks right now mode....

             

            Any ideas lads on how best to achieve a sub 60min 10 mile???

              Roots - another vote of confidence for you doing <1:23 with your base and 5K time.  I recently ran 1:23:13 after an 18:19 5K.  I just did 6:21 miles all the way.  Flat course.

               Also, I like your 4X2 mile at HM pace.  Excellent workout.  You will be surprised at how much 'easier' those 6:19's will feel on race day!

              Ger


                Probably running 5:59/mile pace would be the best way to achieve this. (Sorry I just feeling like being an ass   ). I'm still in the post-marathon, my running sucks right now mode....

                 

                 

                Same as me man but it's time to get over it and get back on the horse so to speak, your running is great I think we just need to believe in ourselves more. Yeah I know it 5.59 pace but only for 1 mile 6.00 will do for the other 9. Just thought I'd target something other than a 10k or half marathon as a marathon indicator for a change thats all and was just wondering if anybody could help. Still after sub 3 and will not give up on it.

                  Ger, I've only run sub-6 pace in a race in a 4k. My last 10k was about 6:10/mile pace. I ran an 8k @6:05/mile pace. The last two were 2 and 4 weeks out from my 2:55,so if you can run a 59Tight lippedx 10 mile,I would think a sub-3 would be a piece of cake. But I still have a 1:26:40 for my HM PR.


                  As to obtain it...Since your shorter PR's are better, I would concentrate on the longer distance training. Thats all I really do. Lotsa miles. Long LT runs (4-7 miles). Long runs, etc. I'm a Pfitz/HADD believer.

                     If a runner is performing MP training at "current fitness" training paces, and in the taper/sharpening phase the fitness level might improve another notch or half-notch, what is the benefit of the volume of MP at the previous fitness level?

                     

                    You don't do it at previous fitness level, you do it at current fitness level.  This often means estimating what your current fitness is based on workouts and other races and it does change during a training cycle.  It's okay.  These workouts are not a laser-guided surgical strike, they are a blunt instrument.  The exact pace isn't all that important at the end of the day, in fact I think you're better off being conservative.

                    Runners run.

                    Ger


                      I think your right I managed a sub 30 min 5 mile 2 weeks out from the marathon on a tempo run, so speed endurance and not speed is the thing i really need to work on.  I have ordered a copy of Pfitz 2nd edition so I will go with that it seems to be mentioned quiet a lot.

                        alan, Ger, Ken: Thanks for the votes of confidence, but I am cautious about correlating the 17:37. It was one of my best running performances of the year but in ideal conditions and course. Not sure about translating that mark over 13.1.  Can I make pre-race excuses? I wore flats in the 5k but will run in trainers for the HM. I'm not positive how I'll hold up over the distance so I won't chance it.

                         

                        Thanks for the pace tips - I do want to hit 6:25-6:29 in mile one and then get right on pace. The course is a 13 miles straight on an old railroad bed, which is now a flat asphalt path. The kind of course to get in rhythm asap.

                         

                           

                          You don't do it at previous fitness level, you do it at current fitness level.  This often means estimating what your current fitness is based on workouts and other races and it does change during a training cycle.  It's okay.  These workouts are not a laser-guided surgical strike, they are a blunt instrument.  The exact pace isn't all that important at the end of the day, in fact I think you're better off being conservative.

                           

                          Thanks for the input Mikeymike. I appreciate your thoughts.

                           

                          I'm not sure if I'm parsing words, or having a hard time explaining what I mean, but I certainly agree that its less important stress exact MP pace in training. It seems to me that race day conditions dictate real MP on race day.

                           

                          I guess the broader question I would ask, regarding MP training, is what phases of training (how many weeks out from race) is best time to introduce into routine?


                          I'm back!

                             I wore flats in the 5k but will run in trainers for the HM. I'm not positive how I'll hold up over the distance so I won't chance it. 

                             The course is a 13 miles straight on an old railroad bed, which is now a flat asphalt path. The kind of course to get in rhythm asap.

                             

                              

                            Sounds perfect for flats to me... is there some reason to think they would be a problem for you, or a reason not to take this opportunity to find out? I'm slower than you, and I wear flats for the marathon.  Wearing trainers in a half should definitely add a second or two per mile.

                              I guess the broader question I would ask, regarding MP training, is what phases of training (how many weeks out from race) is best time to introduce into routine?

                               

                              Good question--I'll let you know when I figure it out.  I'm still finding out what works for me but lately (in the last couple years) I've been doing MP workouts only in the last 6 to 8 weeks of marathon training.  And really only 3-4 workouts total in a marathon buildup.  For me, for now that seems like the right amount, maybe for some others it would be too much or too little.

                              Runners run.

                              Ger


                                I guess the broader question I would ask, regarding MP training, is what phases of training (how many weeks out from race) is best time to introduce into routine?
                                Just on marathon recovery. I alway take my RHR every morning and prior to the last few days before my marathon it was always 38/39 BPM.  The 3/4 days before the marathon and the 4 days after the marathon it was up arouind 43/44 BPM.  I took it again on the 5th day after the marathon and it was back down to 38/39 BPM so I went for a nice 5 mile run in around 34 minutes legs felt ok if still a little tender in places. I had intended doing another 4 mile run today but this morning my RHR is back up to 43/44 BPM.  I recently read an article somewhere that said that this may be an sign of overtraining. If anyone has any ideas please let me know and | want to do my post marathon recovery properly but at the same time I do not want to lose the benefits that my 6 months marathon training has given me.