2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks) (Read 277 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    Darkwave - Oh, right, yeah that makes sense. You're likely not even being challenged aerobically on these shorter events.
    Re: The records, does not matter, your name is in the books now !
    And yes, those sprint records in your division are very impressive!
    Re: the shoes for the championship, it seems to me the logical choice would be super spikes ?
    I mean the ones the elite athletes are wearing to races now, they're certainly around 20mm.
    Also, I guess my theory that you'd be more stable in non cheater shoes didn't materialise?

     

    I've actually tried two pairs of super spikes (both were on close-out, so I picked them up cheap) - the Nike Dragonfly and the Adidas Avanti.  I can't run in them with spikes at all.  If I remove the spikes from the superspikes, I can run in them, but with difficulty (I was wearing the Adidas Avanti when I struggled to my illustrious 3:43 800m performance.  Even when I was able to run a decently fast mile, I was always striking with my midfoot.  I just don't run on my toes.  And spikes really want you to do that. 

    A friend suggested cross-country spikes, so I may try some of those when they're in stores again.

     

    As for non-cheater shoes - dunno if the Adios 8 counts, but I'm going to try that for my next 10K and 5K on the roads - it's definitely less bounce, which I think will be better.

     

    Having less bounce does help some; the issue is that I lack proprioception (knowing exactly where the ground is relative to my feet).  I've learned to make educated guesses based on certain stack heights and bounce, so when those change, I have to relearn stuff.

     

     

    MickJogger - When you're struggling in those 2+ hour long runs, is it leg soreness or is it the perception of exertion that sky rockets ?

    In my case it's the latter and I'm now suspecting it could be a bout of Hypoglycemia because I always run those fasted.

     

     

    Hypoglycemia seems like a good possibility here.  Of course, we're getting back into how much fueling matters for the marathon and long runs, and I know I'm in the minority on that one Smile

     

     

     

    dw No spikes allowed for track race??? Odd. No drafting is also a little odd. That's an interesting day for sure overall. The selfie stick circus clowns at races just make me feel more badass. They're not even really on my radar menu lol. But I'm with you on that being a lot less cool than just a bunch of serious people there to do their best and compete.

     

    I know you mentioned fueling between the 1500 and 800 but did you consume any caffeine throughout the day? Or is that not your thing? I feel like it could help with the mental fatigue of being there all day and racing 3 times.

     

    I think I must have mis-typed.  Spikes were allowed, as long as the shoe stack height was 25mm or less.  Supershoes (Vaporflies, Adios Pro) were not.  Nor were normal trainers.  For example, my Adidas SL 20.2s would not be legal.  The issue with spikes is that I don't run very well in them. Smile

    As for caffeine - I used to be big on caffeine during races.   However, I can't seem to handle it any more.  Anything that is stimulating - chocolate, caffeine, etc makes the neuro stuff worse.  I actually suspect that pot/cannabis might help calm down the muscles that are over-firing.  However, marijuana is both banned by WADA and grounds for employment termination at my job, so no way I'm trying it.

     

    The no drafting thing was annoying - essentially it was because it was a mixed gender race.  Males could draft males but not females, and vice versa.  I understand this is because they considered it two different races held simultaneously.

     

     Fishy If you want to get talked OUT of running a fall marathon, you are on the wrong thread lol!!!

     

     

    What he said...

     

     

     My Week

    On another note, today I tried 2 minute intervals at marathon pace and loved it. I've never messed with MP intervals this short before. I think it's a new thing I might do when I'm still really far out from my next marathon. Then gradually increase the interval lengths. Thoughts on that?

     

    Hm...I'm not sure what MP intervals that short are accomplishing physiologically, other than adding a bit of relaxed turnover to an easy paced run (I like adding them to the second hour of a long run the day after a hard tempo for that reason, but I don't think that's how you're using them here).

     

    But I guess as an easing into marathon training thing, they could have their place.

     

    Dave - good job under definitely sub-optimal racing conditions for a half!

     

    MarkyMark - shoes full of water are the most fun when you don't own either the car you are riding home in or the house you will be entering when you arrive home Smile

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    darkwave


    Mother of Cats

      41 miles running, 90 minutes pool-running, 500 yards swimming.

       

      M: 90 minutes pool-running and upperbody weights/core.
      Tu: 10 miles, including 2x(1200, 800, 400) in 5:32, 3:33, 1:43, 5:12, 3:24, 1:40 (recovery was 1 lap jog in 2:1x-2:5x after each.). Then did some 200s in 49-50 seconds. Followed with leg strengthwork.
      W: Nothing in the morning (felt sick). Streaming yoga in the afternoon.
      Th: 8 miles very easy (9:29) with Commander Keen in the morning; streaming pilates in the evening.
      F: 5 miles on the track, including drills and some 200s (50-51 seconds) and 100s (24-25 seconds).
      Sa: 7 miles, including two track races - 3000m in 13:11 and 800m in 3:19. Followed with 500 yards recovery swimming.
      Su: 11 miles easy (9:17) followed by full body strengthwork.

       

      This week was a bit low on mileage, both because I raced on Saturday and because I had some weird food poisoning/stomach bug thing on Wednesday morning. I was horribly nauseous for about 2 hours, then totally fine. No idea what was going on. My best guess is that snacking on raw chocolate chip cookie dough on Tuesday afternoon was a bad idea.

       

      Thursday was another great meet-up with Commander Keen where I forced him to run on the mall (very cliched, but I find it easier to chat when you're not also dodging cars in intersections.)

       

      Saturday was another track meet (race report). Per my usual, I was stiff and rigid for most of both races - when it takes you 1-3 miles to hit your stride, races shorter than 2 miles are an exercise in frustration. But I felt like I ran better than the previous meet, and I certainly accelerated off the line a bit better. And I also figured out that I ran my best in these shorter meets when I wasn't thinking about the meet at all. That's different from the psychological approach that used to work best for me (which was to ignore times and focus on running the best race I had in me). But times change, I guess.

       

      On Sunday, I decided to ignore my running gait and focus on two things - keeping my shoulders relaxed and running as quietly as possible. The run went very well and I was able to converse and navigate uneven pavement better than my norm. So perhaps those are key running cues also (of course, being tired from the race also helped -I'm always much more fluid and have better control of everything when my legs are tired).

       

      I also swapped from pre-run stretching and mobilization to pre-run muscle release (massaging out knots and foam rolling) and that seemed to help also. I may need to switch my schedule up and foam roll before my runs and stretch after.

      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

       

      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

      shouldbedeleted


        ....

           

          Also, in case you're thinking I'm loaded in money to afford that, just remember that I don't have any kids, nor house mortgage, nor student debt. I live frugally well below my means. I almost never ever treat myself to something nice. So this is me treating myself to something nice.

           

          I like it; I think it follows the reasoning that most guilty shoppers develop. I bought another expensive handbag, but I think I deserve it because.....well in reality it doesn't matter, because it's your life, money, etc and I hope you can share your training plan here, so we can freeload.

           

          PS: Sorry to invade your thread, but had to come here, as you never come to the Waltons thread. On the long run topic, it's more a combo of not having enough time for 3 hour runs and really not knowing what to do, mentally, for 3 hours. The combination of being physically and mentally exhausted is tough. Having said that, I am starting to work my way back up to 120 minutes and that feels totally manageable. I make sure to have plenty of fuel; I love to eat. That has never been an issue!

          HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)

           

          2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!

          darkwave


          Mother of Cats

            And yeah, I bet you're gonna love the 1500m, it's super fun, you just sprint off the start line and run as hard as you can.

             

             

            The best thing about racing the 1500 is when you hit the last lap and realize you only have 300m left, not 409m.

             

            (I mentally count my laps from the start line, not the finish line)

            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

             

            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

            shouldbedeleted


              ....

              mt79


                Just read the last 8 weeks of posts...that was...interesting.  I see people posting reactions to races, but I sometimes don't see the race / report.  Is that a Strava thing or something else?  I am not running software/hardware knowledgeable.

                 

                I must have last posted early April or late March?  When I left off posting, had just broken 20 for 5k in March, wanted sub 19 in June.  Unfortunately, the PF in my left foot progressed to a point that I finally had to stop training - my last completed run was March 29.  I did some damage to my ankle running on the side of my foot to cushion the blow to my heel.  I also hurt my abdomen doing speed work.

                 

                Started doing some weight training in April, since I had time to kill.  I way overdid things, and in May, I hurt my chest / ribs, so had to stop that too.  At that point, I finally broke down and joined a 24 hour gym.  Did a few cardio workouts on different equipment to see what I could do without hurting the foot/ankle/ribs.  I left for a 4+ week vacation in late May, and I'll be home to resume the gym training in 2 weeks.  My chest, abs, and ankle are all good to go now.  It's just the PF that won't go away.  I did have some crazy borderline incontinence, Flavio, I had to pee nearly non stop like your youtube video person mentioned.  I guess it happens from tensing/clinching all day.  That went away as soon as I stopped running.

                 

                My new plan on my return in 2 weeks - I think I can do a combination of cycling and arc trainer without flaring up the PF too badly.  It aggravates it, but it never gets worse.  I should be able to build up a nice cardio base with 60-75 minutes sessions at the gym.  I will sprinkle in some weight training since I'm already there.  Hopefully Sep / Oct I can get back to racing and maybe do a 5k to see where I am.  At this point I will settle for sub 19 in 2024.  I had hoped to do a marathon in late Fall or Spring, but at this rate, it won't happen.  Cross training isn't the end of the world, but it is more boring for me, and it takes more volume which cuts into my scarce free time.

                 

                Will try to post more, but I don't like posting too much in a running forum when I'm not running.       

                DavePNW


                  mt79 - welcome back! Sorry about the PF; I have nothing to offer there.

                   

                  I see people posting reactions to races, but I sometimes don't see the race / report.  Is that a Strava thing or something else?  I am not running software/hardware knowledgeable.    

                   

                  Yes in many cases people here are connected on Strava, so we see race results before they're posted here.

                  Dave

                  DavePNW


                     

                    PS: Sorry to invade your thread, but had to come here, as you never come to the Waltons thread. On the long run topic, it's more a combo of not having enough time for 3 hour runs and really not knowing what to do, mentally, for 3 hours. The combination of being physically and mentally exhausted is tough. Having said that, I am starting to work my way back up to 120 minutes and that feels totally manageable. I make sure to have plenty of fuel; I love to eat. That has never been an issue!

                     

                     Mick Jogger - yes, long distance running is tough! Both physically and mentally! Honestly I think if you want to be a marathoner, a key trait to have (or develop) is a high tolerance for boredom. I do most of my LRs with a group now, but for most of my running career I did them solo. And I don't even use headphones. People (mainly non-runners) ask me, "what are you thinking about for 3 hours out there by yourself?" My standard response is "mostly, pancakes." If you want to run marathons, you've got to figure out a way to bang out a steady-paced 20 miler. You can argue the exact time/distance upper limit, but any way you slice it they'll be long and boring. IMHO: if 2 hours is the most you can do, due to either available time or boredom tolerance, stick to HMs.

                    Dave

                    CommanderKeen


                    Cobra Commander Keen

                      Krash - Sub 2:50, yes. That would be a worthy goal.


                      Flavio - There have been quite a few times I've had to try looking up a specific critter (usually a bird) that I hadn't seen before.


                      DWave - It was great getting together for another run! That was again the highlight of the trip. The Sinisters are too high?? Wow, I didn't expect that, but I guess it goes to show the bias I have with regards to running shoes in general.


                      Fishy - Welcome to weight lifting club! I think I've had some back issues clear up since starting to lift, too.


                      Merkle - Seems like a pretty good week despite the illness. Better now?


                      Busy week for me last week as I was attending a conference in DWave's AO and didn't have the time to check in on the thread at all.
                      Laps around the Mall was great owing to the company. I even returned there the next day for a workout - I've run on the Mall before, but mostly in route to/from another location. All those laps were enough for the local legend on one segment, lol.
                      I manipulated my lifting days ahead of the conference seeing as how I wouldn't have access to a gym with proper weights there, which paid off as I got in all those lifting days and a new squat PR of 220lbs/100kg, and I'm only a tiny plate away from matching my bench PR. Unscrewing my lifting cadence will take a week, though, which is a downside.
                      Running is going quite well and I feel like my fitness is really coming along nicely. I might have an opportunity to run a Tracksmith 5000m (my first 5000m and second 1mi on a track) as well as a road 5k in the next few weeks.
                      At the same time, I'm looking back on races just two summers ago and I have multiple 5ks that much faster than what I think I'm currently capable of despite my perceived fitness and it's messing with my head a bit.
                      Either I'm faster than I think I am, or I've slowed down a ton in just 2 years - and I'm a bit scared to find out which is correct.

                       

                      Weekly for period: From: 06/03/2024 To 06/09/2024

                      <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
                      Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                      in ft
                      06/03 2 x 10 T/3 x 5 I/4 x 1 R 13.70 22.05 01:39:02 07:14 04:29 433
                      06/03 Not enough recovery mulberries for full recovery 4.00 6.44 00:37:10 09:18 05:46 161
                      06/04 9 snails, 3 turkeys, & 3 rabbits 9.00 14.49 01:21:01 09:00 05:35 322
                      06/04 Morning Weight Training 0.00 0.00 00:55:11 00:00 00:00 0
                      06/04 Lunch Run 4.05 6.52 00:36:07 08:55 05:32 200
                      06/05 1 deer (1 stride) 13.01 20.93 01:46:47 08:12 05:06 741
                      06/06 Chatting around the mall 9.31 14.97 01:25:38 09:12 05:43 249
                      06/07 6 x mile 12.21 19.64 01:33:46 07:41 04:46 256
                      06/08 1 rabbit, 1 B-25 Mitchell, & 1 chicken that failed to cross the road 5.00 8.05 00:44:16 08:51 05:30 243
                      06/09 8 rabbits & 1 deer (1 stride) 15.26 24.55 02:00:35 07:54 04:55 535
                      06/09 Lunch Weight Training 0.00 0.00 01:11:18 00:00 00:00 0

                      Totals: Time: 13:50:51 - 🦅Imperial: 85.54 mi - Metric: 137.63 km

                      5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                       

                      Upcoming Races:

                       

                      August 31 - Brookhaven 5k

                      October 13 - Prairie Fire Half

                      November 2  - Crossroads Marathon

                       

                      Marky_Mark_17


                        Keen ran with another person, in a mall?  This is the guy who spends most of his time spotting wildlife in the middle of nowhere.  Well played, Darkwave.

                         

                        Dave - I'm amazed you manage 3 hours without headphones consistently.  My LRs are typically 1.5 to 2.5 hours and that's the one time I generally do run with music, unless I'm out in the forest.

                         

                        Darkwave - honestly if you're gonna get food poisoning, 2 hours sounds like a great result!

                        3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                        10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                        * Net downhill course

                        Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

                        Up next: Still working on that...

                        "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                        DavePNW


                           

                          Dave - I'm amazed you manage 3 hours without headphones consistently.  My LRs are typically 1.5 to 2.5 hours and that's the one time I generally do run with music, unless I'm out in the forest.

                           

                           

                          A couple times, 3 weeks before a marathon, I ran 22-milers that ended up taking longer than the marathon. Which meant they were in the 3:20s.

                          Dave

                          shouldbedeleted


                            ....

                               

                               Mick Jogger - yes, long distance running is tough! Both physically and mentally! Honestly I think if you want to be a marathoner, a key trait to have (or develop) is a high tolerance for boredom. I do most of my LRs with a group now, but for most of my running career I did them solo. And I don't even use headphones. People (mainly non-runners) ask me, "what are you thinking about for 3 hours out there by yourself?" My standard response is "mostly, pancakes." If you want to run marathons, you've got to figure out a way to bang out a steady-paced 20 miler. You can argue the exact time/distance upper limit, but any way you slice it they'll be long and boring. IMHO: if 2 hours is the most you can do, due to either available time or boredom tolerance, stick to HMs.

                               

                              Hi Dave - totally agree with you. Two hours can be enough if you run 6 minute miles. Unfortunately my easy/long run pace is more like 5.30-6minutes per KM! I have run and completed 2 marathons; I think I know what my body needs to being able to complete it without bonking. It's a combo of a lot of miles and occasional 150 - 180min runs. Currently I am ok with 2hr max - but I can stretch my boredom tolerance out out over time; currently on a countdown with 19 weeks to go and often listen to true crime or trail running podcasts (I need something easily digestible due to mental fatigue). I have tried group runs, but haven't yet found the right crowd that clicks and I am so particular with timing (not on weekends, ideally super early in the morning), that I had a hard time finding running buddies. I am sensitive to spending my money for the half marathon distance - somehow I subcontiously believe that it isn't right to spend time, travel and money for just a 90-100 minute experience. That doesn't mean that I am drawn to Ultras though. Anyhow, thanks for your thoughts on this!

                               

                              Flavio - trying to run all the streets in a given town seems like a fun project. I might do that. However, I hate turning around so how did you deal with cul de sac/dead end streets? I just need to make it more fun in general I guess. For me that means stopping for 5 minutes to have some chocolate icecream or similar, or as Dave mentioned, running part of it with a group or fun people...

                              HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)

                               

                              2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!

                              mmerkle


                                 

                                Keen - You're progressing super fast! I'm not really shocked, we always knew you had absurd strength from those 100 mile weeks.
                                Also, stop jerking around and taper for that 5k race, even if only 2 days. Let yourself run great!

                                 

                                 

                                This is good advice. I tapered a bit before the track 2 mile I just did and I felt pretty solid and it went well. A track 5k is a great PR opportunity. Why do you think you've slowed?

                                 

                                MickJogger Doing some kind of interval work during a long run helps it go by faster. During the interval portion, in my experience, you're thinking about the intervals and not how long you've been running. So somethiing like, first 30-45 minutes easy, then either some MP intervals or some tempo intervals which will eat up at least another 30-60 minutes. When that's over, you're probably around 90 minutes in, and running the rest of it at an easy clip will feel like a treat.