2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 288 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    Should also note - I've found that my fitness is NOT correlated across all distances.  When I'm in my best marathon shape, I don't race shorter distances well - my shorter distance PRs from mile-10M have all been set during cycles focusing on that distance.  Until last fall, I had only PR'd the half after a cycle focused on that distance.  When I marathon train, I get locked into a certain rhythm, and it's very hard for me to race at a pace far different from that rhythm - I invariably finish those shorter races feeling like I could have gone longer, but couldn't find that faster gear.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    Nimmals


      Nimmals - just to be clear, that was you, not a quote from Mikkey right? Overall, I lean more towards your camp, but I know even Daniels who looked at the whole "20 minutes at 60 minute race pace" softened it a bit by extending his temp runs up to 60 minutes at a slower pace.

       

       JMac I meant to quote Mikkey could get the cursor out the quote to type my respone so I just Tempo'd it    <<Even Messing up a post, equals Tempo>> smh

       

      Jmac I am in agreement with you. I still don't think there is such a thing as a long tempo but lots of respectable coaches who should know better have begun to use it so it kind of en vogue.

       

      Darkwave you saw that turn a failure into a tempo. Seriously, that drives me insane as well.

       

      JT you gotta get outside you're wearing down the treadmill.

       

      Steve we are of like mind. Doing up to a half before a marathon is called an "Old School Dump Out" thats how the big guns did it back in the days.

      Nimmals


        Should also note - I've found that my fitness is NOT correlated across all distances.  When I'm in my best marathon shape, I don't race shorter distances well - my shorter distance PRs from mile-10M have all been set during cycles focusing on that distance.  Until last fall, I had only PR'd the half after a cycle focused on that distance.  When I marathon train, I get locked into a certain rhythm, and it's very hard for me to race at a pace far different from that rhythm - I invariably finish those shorter races feeling like I could have gone longer, but couldn't find that faster gear.

         

        I used to marvel at how alike we are even in the same field of work. Sad to see the similarities stop there. My fitness correlates almost perfectly. I align  with McMillan race times, although my Road Mile fitness far exceeds all other distances but that's because I was a half  miler in college. But I agree fitness does not usually correlate across all distances.   I have always questioned for instance the validity of Yasso 800s. I think they're useless and mostly coincidence.  Yasso 800s says I can run a 2:25 which is BS. So I never have and would never put stock in Yassos.

         

        I can't live without my McMillan app. Its always spot on across all distances except for the mile.

        finbad


          Just a point on the entire "I ran X PR followed by Y PR." Doesn't everyone realize how highly correlated those two are going to be? Obviously if you PR in a shorter distance, there's a good chance you will be PR in a longer distance soon after because your fitness is translatable. The point is you could have possibly ran Y faster without that race.

           

           

          Yeah, that was kind of my point, I was being a bit sarky about the n=1 examples. But I did also want to make sure I got to show off about the weekend I got 2 PR's.

           

          Anyway, how you feeling for your half?

          Upcoming; 31st March Alloa half marathon Tom Scott 10 mile, 15th April Boston marathon, 3rd May Scottish 5k champs, 9th May Helensburgh 10k, 16th May Dumbarton 10k, 26th May Shettleston 10k, 1st June Killearn trail 10, 2nd June Milngavie trail race

          JMac11


            DW - Since you brought it up, can we talk about what fitness is gained by running a half marathon (or 15K) all out? I guess that's an important point, i.e. how much fitness do we gain by doing a half marathon all out vs. a more "traditional" marathon workout like a long run or LT work. I know that a 10K is often viewed as a fitness booster for marathons, but not sure where that stops, e.g. does running a marathon probably hurts you more than helps due to the incredible recovery time needed.

             

            Fin - Everybody has to show off at some point, sneaking it into an answer is impessive . Anyway I'm feeling great, my long run this Saturday of 22 plus this 17 mile LT workout on Tuesday with little residual fatigue has told me that I've somehow salvaged this cycle. It's like a switch flipped where I went from feeling like crap all the time to at least nibbling on steel, if not fully ready to eat it yet. I may not taper as much as I expected into this half just because I feel so great, but it's still only easy running through Saturday (with an off day). Forecast still has diagonal headwinds of around 10 mph the entire way, so not ideal but not horrible. Course still sucks with hills.

             

            My goal is to run 1:18:30, as that would be a sub 6:00 pace. I've had this weird goal of trying to break 6:00 at increasing distances, mainly because I was stuck at exactly 6:00 pace for a 5K for so long. I finally broke it in 2017. Broke it in a 10K in the summer of last year, and a 10 miler as my tune up race last fall. Hitting in the half this cycle would be great. Not sure it'll ever happen in a marathon, as that is sub 2:37.

            5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

             

            Next Race: Boston (4/15/19) 

              I wouldn’t say there’s any major fitness gain from running a 15k or half two weeks out. The hay is mostly in the barn by that point. The purpose of a tune up IMO is to race something a bit quicker than the race that’s a main focus, to remember what it feels like to run fast, and to try to get in a racing mentality.

               

              Edit: I also want to know what I’m capable of for the marathon and the 15k should give me some idea

               

              Someone also made a comment about my goal 15k time and what it correlates to for a marathon. It kind of relates to what Nimmals was saying about his 800 to marathon extrapolation.  The only real race performance I have this training cycle is a mile. A 4:40 mile puts at about 51:11 on the track so anywhere between let’s say 51:30 and 54:00 on the roads(I arbitrarily made my goal the women’s course record which was in that range). A mile is not a great performance to use when assigning a VDOT or extrapolating to longer distances, but is all I got so better than nothing. It starts to get more accurate around 3k and is very accurate at 5k, but the longer the distance the better

              3K: 8:29.12 (2017)     5K: 14:56.59 (2016)     8K: 25:27 (2016)     FM: 3:00:01 (2018)

              madisonrunner


                I think racing a 15k 16 days before a marathon can be incredibly beneficial.  You have to make decisions on race day that you can't simulate in training and this gives you a great chance to do that.  I.e. a group is going 5s per mile faster than my plan - do I run with them or go by myself at my own pace?  When do I lead the group?  It's also a great confidence booster if you run well.  16 days is plenty of time to recover.

                 

                MMC - your goal time for the 15k is almost exactly my PR from 2017 (53:29).  If you run around there I agree that 2:50 should be very achievable.  For context in 2017 I ran a 2:41:50 (into a headwind), then 3 weeks later the 15k, then 3 weeks after that a 2:40:01.

                 

                I use the term tempo for a comfortably hard run.  I.e. a pace I could run for about a marathon.

                Marathon PR:  2:37:22 (2018)  Goal Race:  Milwaukee Marathon 4/6/19

                slingrunner


                  I'm going to interrupt this tempo discussion, to say that I tried a Maurten gel for the first time today and I was able to get it down easily without stopping, while running at about an 8 mile pace.  It was very exciting.  It was  the only thing that went right with my run which had me so out of it I was weaving around at the end, but if there is anybody like me that doesn't like normal gels, I'd suggest trying one out.

                  5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)


                  Elite Jogger

                    I wouldn’t say there’s any major fitness gain from running a 15k or half two weeks out. The hay is mostly in the barn by that point. The purpose of a tune up IMO is to race something a bit quicker than the race that’s a main focus, to remember what it feels like to run fast, and to try to get in a racing mentality.

                     

                     

                    When I raced the half 2 weeks out I had already started a 3 week marathon taper and that was my last big workout (instead of 10 days out). I’m pretty sure 14 days was enough time to absorb the fitness gain from the race and felt very fresh on race day. I’ve had decent training cycles in the past with a “standard” taper and sometimes had a bad race for no apparent reason. If you race less than 3 weeks out then it’s just a matter of tweaking your taper. I don’t think I’d do it again though, simply because I’m older and don’t recover as quickly from races/workouts.

                    5k - 18:29 (2018)   10k - 37:53 (2018)   Half - 1:22:06 (2017)   Full - 2:51:32 (2016)

                     

                    Next Up:  Brighton Mary - 14th April.    London Mary - 28th April

                    steve_


                    powered by plants

                      Another thing to consider is that we never know what's going to happen on marathon race day.  It could be unseasonably warm, it could rain, you could be sick, you could turn an ankle in the first few miles of the race, etc.  Running that half or 15k PR may be the only great result you end up with after 18 weeks of killing yourself.  Not the happiest thought, but realistic.

                      5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                      *downhill AF

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                        DW - Since you brought it up, can we talk about what fitness is gained by running a half marathon (or 15K) all out? I guess that's an important point, i.e. how much fitness do we gain by doing a half marathon all out vs. a more "traditional" marathon workout like a long run or LT work. I know that a 10K is often viewed as a fitness booster for marathons, but not sure where that stops, e.g. does running a marathon probably hurts you more than helps due to the incredible recovery time needed.

                         

                        So....I start with the point that running for a period of time at the effort that you can sustain for 60-90 minutes is a sweet spot in training - an effort level that yields substantial fitness benefits.  (I've personally found that I respond very well to workouts at this effort level.)

                         

                        Normally, of course, when I do workouts at that effort level, I don't hold it for more than about 30-35 minutes.  Why?  Not because I don't believe that there are fitness benefits from going longer, but just that there are diminishing returns, while the cost of the workout in terms of recovery time increases.  Note that diminishing returns does NOT mean no additional benefit from the extra duration, but just that the incremental increase in gain as you lengthen the workout is less.

                         

                        However, at the end of a marathon training cycle, when I'm about to go into a 3 week taper anyway, I've got that time to recover anyway, so why not max out the workout by going the full duration I can hold it for, and then use the taper to absorb the benefits?

                         

                        Additional to the above, I believe that it is important both to keep your normal workouts very controlled, but also to hit a max level effort (going to the well) at least once a month.  Both for mental callousing and to give your body a bit of a shock.  For that reason, I really like to race all out at least every 4-6 weeks, since I don't believe in hammering workouts.  I could race something shorter at the end of a marathon cycle (and sometimes do, if I can't find a well-timed half).  But I've found that I get the most fitness boost for my buck from racing the 10 mile-half distance - again, most likely because I respond really well to running in that 60-90 minute effort range.

                         

                        Tangential to this - I don't like running marathons during training because I really don't see what the gain is from it, and the recovery time is so long.  Presumably you're not racing the tune-up marathon all out, so you're not getting that callousing effect.  All you are doing is practicing covering 26 miles, and for any experienced marathoner, that shouldn't really be a concern.

                         

                        Nimmals - FWIW, McMillan holds very well for me over a lifetime, but not within a cycle, if that makes sense.  For that reason, when I was in a marathon plateau around 2 years ago, I took time off from that distance, and focused on getting my shorter distance times down to where they were equivalent to my marathon goals.  Then I returned to the marathon, and saw improvement.    Whatever distance I'm focusing on at the moment tends to end up being my strongest PR, but then when I shift to another distance, that PR improves to match.

                         

                        Sling - good news on the gel!  I just wish Maurten came in flavors - I like shifting among different flavors when I race.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          Do y'all do the Maurten drink or gel? The drink sounds pretty cool, but the gel sounds icky.

                           

                          Also why Maurtens over other gels?

                          3K: 8:29.12 (2017)     5K: 14:56.59 (2016)     8K: 25:27 (2016)     FM: 3:00:01 (2018)

                          finbad


                            Do y'all do the Maurten drink or gel? The drink sounds pretty cool, but the gel sounds icky.

                             

                            Also why Maurtens over other gels?

                             

                            I've only tried the Maurten gel a couple of times but I'd say the main advantage is texture. It sort of holds together like a jelly rather than a sticky paste. This means that it's pretty easy to just squeeze the whole lot out of the packet without loads of residue and also it slips down in a fairly revolting but easy way. Sort off like doing vodka jelly shots (if that's a thing you've done?)

                            Upcoming; 31st March Alloa half marathon Tom Scott 10 mile, 15th April Boston marathon, 3rd May Scottish 5k champs, 9th May Helensburgh 10k, 16th May Dumbarton 10k, 26th May Shettleston 10k, 1st June Killearn trail 10, 2nd June Milngavie trail race

                            Swim5599


                              The only issue with the Maurten liquid form is that it makes me feel thirsty.  So it’s like I have to drink water on top of the water I’m drinking with the maurten.  So I’ve just returned to gels.

                               

                              As for big races that close.  I usually try to get a half in 5 to 6 weeks before the full.  My coach was still prescribing pretty significant long runs up until 2 weeks out.  I ran 22 with 60 minutes of Mp 14 days out from CIM.

                              HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

                              steve_


                              powered by plants

                                 

                                I've only tried the Maurten gel a couple of times but I'd say the main advantage is texture. It sort of holds together like a jelly rather than a sticky paste. This means that it's pretty easy to just squeeze the whole lot out of the packet without loads of residue and also it slips down in a fairly revolting but easy way. Sort off like doing vodka jelly shots (if that's a thing you've done?)

                                 

                                This.  It's consistency makes it so easy to go down and you don't need to drink a bunch of water on top of it to rinse it down.  The jello-shot comparison is spot on.

                                 

                                The 320 drink is great.  I get that some people may find it to cause thirst, but I've not had a problem there.  I also like that their flavor is just "sweet".  Not orange or citrus or any other dumb flavor I don't need in a race.

                                5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                                *downhill AF