New member, 100mi Ultra training advice needed (or tell me I'm crazy and why!) (Read 148 times)

 

The potential problem with this mode of thinking is this:  The body produces physiological adaptations based on training load AND duration.  The adaptations you are looking for include things like mitochondrial density, more capillaries, greater aerobic capacity... etc.

 

 

...

 

We don't get to keep our gains unless we continue to apply the necessary training load.  When you look at it this way, I hope it makes more sense why it's generally not a good idea to approach any athletic goal (particularly endurance-related ones) from the standpoint of minimizing the training.  The body is always evaluating the pattern of stress and adapting only when necessary.

Great post and exactly the type of input and discussion I was hoping for! (I also appreciate not being treated like a "troll", I get that certain things in my OP; "newbie" + "100 mi ultra"+ "HIIT" to replace some running could have that effect.)

I do want to be clear where I'm coming from.  I'm not looking to minimize. or get out of anything.  If I commit to this, I will run every step needed to efficiently and effectively complete my goal without serious injury in training or at the event.  If that means running from here to the tip of S. America, so be it.

That said, since I'm not approaching this from a love of running or running specific background...the key words are efficiently, effectively, and needed.  If there is a mile I don't need to run, I'd rather spend that time with my family.  In any case, this is all academic theory that I have plenty of time to ponder and learn more about as I spend the next many months building up a mileage base, improving my running form (to be as efficient as possible) and knocking out a few races....before I ever start a dedicated "ultra" training program.

An outside example from the general fitness world.  The still mainstay fitness advice is strength training plus "cardio."  So, the typical workout would be 30-60 mins weights or machines plus 30-45 mins of running, elliptical, treadmill, exercise bike etc.

A much more efficient and effective approach:  Circuit training using super-sets of resistance exercises and minimal rest.  Develops strength, strength-endurance, anaerobic and aerobic capacity all at the same time!  A 20-30 min workout that is more effective than the traditional hour plus.  On top of that, "resistance" doesn't have to mean "weights", so I can get a killer workout at home in 20-30 mins with difficult variations of push ups, pull ups, handstand push ups, squats and bridges etc. without a gym membership or commute time...and out fight, run, lift, pull, push the traditional lifting male any day of the week on 1/2 to 1/3 the time spent.

I'm looking for the equivalent concepts in the endurance running world, are there more efficient ways than the status quo?  If there aren't, I want to learn why from a physiological perspective at least (and your post spoke directly to that).

My near-term focus is form, cadence (I'm at a dismal 160 steps per min) and slowly building up miles...Thanks again!

Great thread, lots of great replies and I'm in awe with your ambitious goal!  I hope you keep us updated on your training and progress.  Definitely making the right moves to ask around.

My 2 cents...

Being new to the ultra world and trail races, the one thing I would add is that marathon training and racing is a bit different (note - most marathon training books and plans assume you'll be running a road race).  From my own experience and reading around the forums, a road marathon can be tougher on the body than, say, a trail 50k (I wouldn't know personally about longer distances).  Also, in road marathons, assuming you're adequately trained, you'll be taxing your aerobic system much harder, but for a shorter period of time.  Depending on the nature of the trail race, you may be dependent on surges of effort to get over hills or technical sections, but you won't be exerting your aerobic system as much overall.  While it's good that you're reading up on marathon training, also be cognizant of the differences in training and preparations for a trail ultra vs marathon.

Also IMO - I don't like the term "recovery run" for marathon training.  While yes, you are engaging active recovery from a harder effort, the term assumes you are not benefiting in other ways, when you absolutely are (as MrMatt explained)!  This is why overall training volume (miles per week) is the primary factor in the reputable predictor calculators for marathon performance.  These predictors don't care about what type of tempo runs, VO2 max runs, marathon-paced runs, or how many or how long your long runs were.  This is because you continue to develop your aerobic system during those bread-and-butter easy runs.  Miles matter most and mostly easy.  My best marathon (3:26 with a 30 second negative split) came off my slowest average pace training cycle but highest volume.

OTOH - a trail ultra is a different beast.  Like I said, I'm new to the ultra world so I don't have much to add in terms of preparations, but in my short experience, it wasn't my aerobic system that was the limiting factor in performance, rather lack of experience on terrain, poor hydration tactics (marathons you get a water stop every mile or two - ultras you don't), poor effort management, and probably most important poor training for the nature of the race.  My first trail mountain race (only 28k) took me over 8 hours!  And I was aerobically capable of a 3:30 marathon.  This year, I'll be training for and running trail ultras (goal is 50M or 100K) and I assure you my training will be different than for marathons.  Good luck!

I've been dusted by plenty of runners with a higher BMI than you.   In fact Allie Kieffer was the second American woman to winner Shalane Flanagan in the last NYC Marathon and 5th among all women, and she's been plagued by her image as not "looking like" a runner.

https://www.self.com/story/my-weight-has-nothing-to-do-with-how-good-a-runner-i-am

I think endurance runners do "try" to shed pounds because being lighter at the same aerobic fitness level will make you faster (IIRC - it's like 2 seconds per mile per pound lighter in a marathon).  I don't think they're burning excess muscle as fuel (unless woefully under-nourished), but rather the muscles naturally atrophy from non-use.  Also, if you only have, say, 10 hours a week to exercise (re - life), it's best to use those 10 hours running to be a faster runner.  But it doesn't sound like you have any time goals for the race (except the cutoff time), so I don't see what you're trying to achieve as a problem, unless you exceed your body's limits during training.

The one thing I do wonder about, and it's more curiosity on my part, is that high intensity strength training mostly works your fast twitch muscles.  For endurance running, you need to build your slow twitch muscles.  How you can balance these two, especially on the lower half of your body, will be interesting.

Yes, you burn fat and glycogen simultaneously and not just on long runs.  This is another reason why those easy miles are so important, because you're also developing the enzymes necessary to burn more fat as fuel.  I don't think it's necessary to train in a "fasted state" either.  I think pace/effort is more important - keep it easy (slow), except for those higher intensity workouts!  But this is where I'm also in no-man's land, because I have to teach my body to eat and run for ultras, when I previously didn't.

Edit - I should have said fast/slow twitch muscle fibers, not muscles.  But I'm sure you got my point.

You may find this interesting. https://www.outsideonline.com/2270846/how-build-strength-and-endurance-simultaneously