Forums >Off the Beaten Path>Since nearly no one is talking about it...
I think another aspect relating to the reaction from India that has confused me (although minor and maybe 'unfair' to bring into the discussion) is that these victims in the US were US immigrants (not visitors).
Although their heritage was Indian, their nation is USA.
As a melting pot, we leave "The Netherlands", "Canada", "Great Britain", "Australia", "India" or where ever when we move here. Sometimes, they're visitors, and remain Indian, but I believe that I read a couple of those victims have been in the USA since the early 1980s.
(That does NOT take away from the diplomatic relations that are essential as it relates to the USA and India. Nor does it take away from anger related to this terrorism from Indians that have friends and family that have been impacted).
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I think another aspect relating to the reaction from India that has confused me (although minor and maybe 'unfair' to bring into the discussion) is that these victims in the US were US immigrants (not visitors). Although their heritage was Indian, their nation is USA. As a melting pot, we leave "The Netherlands", "Canada", "Great Britain", "Australia", "India" or where ever when we move here. Sometimes, they're visitors, and remain Indian, but I believe that I read a couple of those victims have been in the USA since the early 1980s.
Agreed. I only recall that one was not yet a citizen. IIRC his wife and kid(s) were still in India, but had plans to move here once he financially was able to fund their relocation. There may have been more than him, but he stands out in my memory of the brief bios I read of the victims a day or two after the shootings.
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You did. It is hypocritical to criticize the US for "failing to protect" these members of a minority group, when the country making the protest (India) fails to do the same for minority and/or other disadvantaged groups within their own society.
That is incorrect. From your statement, I can tell you have no idea what happens in India regarding the things that happen locally (either such incidents or reactions to them) so i would caution against making such generalizations.If your observation is from the Sikh riots following Indira Gandhi's assassination, you are guilty of extrapolating from a single data point.
Apologies for the digression from the original intent of the thread, but its common knowledge that there is a whole host of social ills that pervade pretty much all classes of the general population in India - to quote one, female infanticide is still being done in several villages as is the so-called "honor killings". There is a village in a place called Haryana where all the eligible bachelors have just not been able to find brides to marry because of the female infanticides that their parents did. You can still find evidences of caste system where a Dalit ("untouchable") was lynched by upper middle-class brahmins because he drank water from the village tap. The good news though is the tide is turning and has been for sometime now but is gaining momentum - all these past practices in the uneducated parts of the country are being reformed and the issues are being taken a lot more seriously today than they were 10-20 years ago.
Also, managing a country of 1.2 billion people (and a democracy at that) is not easy. There is enough and more evidence of political votebanks being manipulated through communal instigations and uprisings. You only need to look at how badly the Godhra carnage and the ensuing riots were managed to understand the political machinations at work.
Personally, I think "criticizing the US for failing to protect"/ burning the US flag etc are ill-conceived kneejerk reactions from people - a nutjob shooting up people of a certain minority class reflects nothing about the US protecting people on its soil.
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That is incorrect. From your statement, I can tell you have no idea what happens in India regarding the things that happen locally (either such incidents or reactions to them) so i would caution against making such generalizations.If your observation is from the Sikh riots following Indira Gandhi's assassination, you are guilty of extrapolating from a single data point. Apologies for the digression from the original intent of the thread, but its common knowledge that there is a whole host of social ills that pervade pretty much all classes of the general population in India - to quote one, female infanticide is still being done in several villages as is the so-called "honor killings". There is a village in a place called Haryana where all the eligible bachelors have just not been able to find brides to marry because of the female infanticides that their parents did. You can still find evidences of caste system where a Dalit ("untouchable") was lynched by upper middle-class brahmins because he drank water from the village tap. The good news though is the tide is turning and has been for sometime now but is gaining momentum - all these past practices in the uneducated parts of the country are being reformed and the issues are being taken a lot more seriously today than they were 10-20 years ago. Also, managing a country of 1.2 billion people (and a democracy at that) is not easy. There is enough and more evidence of political votebanks being manipulated through communal instigations and uprisings. You only need to look at how badly the Godhra carnage and the ensuing riots were managed to understand the political machinations at work. Personally, I think "criticizing the US for failing to protect"/ burning the US flag etc are ill-conceived kneejerk reactions from people - a nutjob shooting up people of a certain minority class reflects nothing about the US protecting people on its soil.
Good Lord. I guess it is too much to ask that you actually read what I wrote rather than simply react to a couple words/phases cherry-picked to trip your outrage meter.
After all, India has a perfect track record in protecting religious minorities from violence.
Yet, you go on and agree with the fundamental point I was making, that it is irrational to criticize a country from failing to protect a certain minority group from violence perpetrated by a nutjob acting alone when you can't do so in your own country. I'm certain the Indian gov't and most Indians overall are making a concerted effort to stop such violence....but it still happens. Just like it does here. So the Indian gov't can get off the high horse from which they leveled criticism for not protecting these people.
And, with that, I'm done with you on this. Perhaps I was not clear enough at the beginning of this thread, but people who go around with a chip on their shoulder looking for excuses to be outraged really annoy me. I simply indicated that India is NO BETTER than the USA on the point they criticized us on...nothing more, nothing less. When you are criticizing someone else for not doing something you are incapable of yourself...well, that's pretty much the definition of hypocritical, no?
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Good Lord. I guess it is too much to ask that you actually read what I wrote rather than simply react to a couple words/phases cherry-picked to trip your outrage meter. After all, India has a perfect track record in protecting religious minorities from violence. Yet, you go on and agree with the fundamental point I was making, that it is irrational to criticize a country from failing to protect a certain minority group from violence perpetrated by a nutjob acting alone when you can't do so in your own country. I'm certain the Indian gov't and most Indians overall are making a concerted effort to stop such violence....but it still happens. Just like it does here. So the Indian gov't can get off the high horse from which they leveled criticism for not protecting these people. And, with that, I'm done with you on this. Perhaps I was not clear enough at the beginning of this thread, but people who go around with a chip on their shoulder looking for excuses to be outraged really annoy me. I simply indicated that India is NO BETTER than the USA on the point they criticized us on...nothing more, nothing less. When you are criticizing someone else for not doing something you are incapable of yourself...well, that's pretty much the definition of hypocritical, no?
Perhaps you should then focus on what it is that you wanted to convey. I agree with what you say above but caste systems and slums have nothing to do with the above topic which is what you stated after "hippocritical" in brackets.
Yep ... couldnt agree with you more on the "people who go around with a chip on their shoulder looking for excuses to be outraged really annoy me".
ETA: And, with that, I'm done with you on this.
Turbolegs this is the danger of forums like these. I can see why your upset by Spaniel's original comment. And he doesn't do a great job of conveying his point. But Spaniel isn't wrong in stating that any outrage by the Indian government is somewhat hypocritical. You don't have to look back to the assassination of Indira Gandhi. You can look back to the shooting in Mumbai in 2008 in which Jews and westerners were targeted. Or 2006 when the commuter trains were attacked and nearly 200 people died.
I'm not blaming the Indian government for this. I'm not blaming the U.S. government for this. I am pretty pissed at the sickos with the guns and bombs. I wish instead of killing a bunch of innocent people they saved everyone a lot of pain and just turned their guns on themselves.
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Turbolegs this is the danger of forums like these. I can see why your upset by Spaniel's original comment. And he doesn't do a great job of conveying his point. But Spaniel isn't wrong in stating that any outrage by the Indian government is somewhat hypocritical. You don't have to look back to the assassination of Indira Gandhi. You can look back to the shooting in Mumbai in 2008 in which Jews and westerners were targeted. Or 2006 when the commuter trains were attacked and nearly 200 people died. I'm not blaming the Indian government for this. I'm not blaming the U.S. government for this. I am pretty pissed at the sickos with the guns and bombs. I wish instead of killing a bunch of innocent people they saved everyone a lot of pain and just turned their guns on themselves.
I do apologize if my point was not clear. However long before Turbo's post I also stated quite clearly that I was not knocking India. I also stated that his interpretation of my post was incorrect. If you don't understand why someone is saying (or not saying) something, which was implied by his"if I am wrong" clause, it is typically not wise to apply the worst possible motivation to them (this sounds familiar).
Slums and caste systems are known, visible problems causing pain and violence. Yet they continue to exist. Random shootings perpetrated against a group...probably not even the one the nutjob intended to target at that...are pretty much impossible to know are coming and take action on. In other words, if you can't protect people from known, visible problems in your own country, how can you criticize another country for not preventing a single freak act that was nearly impossible to foresee? (And before there is more outrage for picking on India for slums and caste systems, we could equally point out similar issues in the US if the situation were reversed. We have our own versions of these problems we just call them by different names).
We also have to remember India could have been 20 different countries if history took a slightly different route. So any generalization of the country invariably will be wrong. Many people try to take advantage of the differences in castes, language, religion, race (yes race) resulting in the various independence movements, marxist groups, riots and violence. Focusing on its commonality rather than the differences are what lets the country be, however dysfunctional that might seem to someone looking from outside.
End of the day, I think we (as in all who have chimed in on this thread) guys all feel the same way about these random and totally tragic, unfortunate incidents no matter how we choose to convey it. Most normal people would and probably should.
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And at 8:45a PDT today, my local news went to the Wisconsin wake LIVE and broadcast a fairly long chunk of a speech. Given what is going on in local news today (including one of our modes of public transportation currently being on fire and a local doctor who waterboarded his own kid), this is significant.
And, we're about to go back to it shortly after 9a. After it being the second-to-top story leading off the news.
My area seems to be doing an ok job of not ignoring.
I promise this is the last local update you will receive from me. This one will go into my top five of weirdest threads I've encountered on RA.
I consider myself "normal" and any and all of these type of incidents make me shudder.
As for the media coverage, I think the CO shootings were much closer to everyday life for most Americans. It happened in a movie theater - how many times have you and your friends or family taken in a movie this year? Compare that to how many times you've been in a temple or mosque.
Most Americans can identify with the CO victims, not so much the WI victims. It isn't bias, it's just human nature.
I do apologize if my point was not clear. However long before Turbo's post I also stated quite clearly that I was not knocking India. I also stated that his interpretation of my post was incorrect. If you don't understand why someone is saying (or not saying) something, which was implied by his"if I am wrong" clause, it is typically not wise to apply the worst possible motivation to them (this sounds familiar). Slums and caste systems are known, visible problems causing pain and violence. Yet they continue to exist. Random shootings perpetrated against a group...probably not even the one the nutjob intended to target at that...are pretty much impossible to know are coming and take action on. In other words, if you can't protect people from known, visible problems in your own country, how can you criticize another country for not preventing a single freak act that was nearly impossible to foresee? (And before there is more outrage for picking on India for slums and caste systems, we could equally point out similar issues in the US if the situation were reversed. We have our own versions of these problems we just call them by different names).
Point taken. And I agree that people shouldn't assume the worst. But sadly often times they do. By bringing up slums and caste systems you make a strong point, but not one that parallels the actual case. By casting such a wide web you're opening the door to say America you can't comment on the Genocide in Darfur because of Rodney King. There is no need to point the finger to injustice in Indian society to say they're levying an unfair charge. If you must point the finger back at India why not just say America's government was powerless to prevent this shooting the way India was powerless to prevent 2008 Mumbai shooting.