Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2019 (Read 581 times)

JMac11


Benevolent Leader

    I’m not sure I agree with the idea that people can’t slow down more and keep their form. Sure, running a 12 minute mile might be difficult, but elite athletes who run sub 5:00 marathons can run 9:00 on their recovery runs. I’m not saying that what one experiences when they slow down isn’t a break down in form, but rather that they just need to learn how to run at MP+60 or MP+120 and still have very similar form to MP. If you don’t, then that may be telling you something.

     

    Again DPS this is just me throwing an idea out there for improving, so you can just ignore me.

    5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

     

    Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

    dpschumacher


      When I'm tat 7:05 or 7:10 I can definitely talk. I have a cadence in the mid 170's when I slow down to 7:30 or so now, I feel like I'm taking super tiny steps and end up stumbling. It is odd considering I was doing it daily a few months ago. I think part of it was when I started running workouts an races (mid may) by body started going back to racing mode where my form adjusts to mid foot to almost toe strike.  I was a 800 and 1500 person in college (and cross country) so the lsd is needed for base, but still feels odd.

      2019 Goal: Run every day

      2019 Goal: Get to 165 lbs

      2019 Goal: Get in shape to be able to run 2 marathons in 2020

      Marky_Mark_17


        I’m not sure I agree with the idea that people can’t slow down more and keep their form. Sure, running a 12 minute mile might be difficult, but elite athletes who run sub 5:00 marathons can run 9:00 on their recovery runs. I’m not saying that what one experiences when they slow down isn’t a break down in form, but rather that they just need to learn how to run at MP+60 or MP+120 and still have very similar form to MP. If you don’t, then that may be telling you something.

         

        Again DPS this is just me throwing an idea out there for improving, so you can just ignore me.

         

        I think it depends a lot on natural cadence.  If you've got a naturally quick leg turnover, then dropping it too low is going to result in either a change in running form (with accompanying risk of injury), or super-short steps (like DPS described).  For example, my easy run on Monday had an average cadence of 182spm.  Strava tells me your most recent easy run was 170spm - that's a big difference.  If you're running genuinely easy (on feel/HR), I don't really think the pace matters a lot.

         

        Honestly, my legs were more stuffed after running a half marathon with my wife four years ago than after a lot of races - she was running at 6-7 minutes/km with walk breaks later on.

        5,000m: 16:03 (Dec-18) | 10,000m: 32:58 (Nov-19) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

        HM: 1:12:49 (Sep-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

        Last race: The Agency Group 10,000m, 9 Nov, 32:58

        Up next: Kerikeri Half Marathon, 23 Nov

        "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

        JMac11


        Benevolent Leader

          A few things:

           

          1) You can’t compare an easy run at 8:30 pace and an easy run at 7:45 pace. For example, my last easy run at 7:45 pace I was at 177 spm. I don’t think 5 SPM makes that big of a difference here. Your SPM should speed up as you speed up, but the point is to try to minimize it as much as you can, e.g. easy runs shouldn’t be 160 SPM and half marathons 200 SPM.

           

          2) Being able to talk is not really the guidepost: I can talk when running marathon pace. Even during a marathon, I can talk in full sentences until about mile 18. It’s about having easy conversations. One thing I’ve noticed recently is that on truly easy runs, I can just breathe through my nose for a bit. If it’s more than easy, I need to breathe through my mouth and nose. I think another easier guide than “can I talk” which is probably too subjective is breathing pattern. I know I’ve exited easy running once my breathing pattern gets to 2-2 (it’s usually 3-3 or 3-2 on easy runs)

           

          3) I haven’t found a single prominent coach who advocates running easy runs at MP+30. Even Jack Daniels, who probably has the fastest easy running out of anyone I know, puts it at MP+60. I like Pfitz’s rule the most though, which is that easy runs should be MP + 15-25%.

           

          4) Your legs were probably more stuffed just because you were way less experienced. As we run more races, our soreness level generally decreases. Otherwise, we would all be very sore after easy long runs of 13.1 miles and not sore after racing.

          5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

           

          Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

          Marky_Mark_17


             

            2. I think we're saying the same thing here - easy running lends itself to comfortable conversations.

             

            3. I don't think having a 'target pace' in mind for an easy run referenced off MP is a great idea full-stop.  Easy should just feel easy.  It might be a bit more than MP or a lot more than MP on any given day.  You shouldn't even be thinking about pace.  Aside from which, it's totally meaningless for anyone who doesn't have a good feel for what their current MP is (like me and DPS).  There's a massive range even amongst elites in terms of easy pace - Zane Robertson is on record saying his easy pace can be anywhere between 4:00/km and 5:00/km (6:20-8:00/mile).

             

            4. OK that was maybe not the best example, but I still stand by the fact that if you're a naturally high cadence runner, below a certain pace things may feel very unnatural and you may end up doing yourself more harm than good.  I've had this exact discussion with the massage therapist I see - who also happens to be a sub-70 HM'er and knows a lot more about biomechanics than me and he endorses easy running being easy in all regards (effort and biomechanical).

            5,000m: 16:03 (Dec-18) | 10,000m: 32:58 (Nov-19) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

            HM: 1:12:49 (Sep-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

            Last race: The Agency Group 10,000m, 9 Nov, 32:58

            Up next: Kerikeri Half Marathon, 23 Nov

            "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

              I haven't got much to add to this topic as there are so many variables. People's age, gender, mileage, talent, experience etc all seems to effect their "easy" pace.

              I've always fallen into the 4.30 to 5 min/km easy pace and 5.30/km recovery pace even when I was running sub 3 marathons and 17.30 5k. My cadence falls to around 176 at recovery and is around 180 at easy. I try to keep form and posture at recovery pace and keep cadence up with obviously shorter steps. Effort is similar to a brisk walk.

              50+ PBs5k 18:29 Tauranga Parkrun May18   

              10k 38.55 oct 19 strava run

              " If you don't use it you lose it but if you use it, it wears out.

              Somewhere in between is about right "      

               

              JMac11


              Benevolent Leader

                Even more thoughts!

                 

                1. When I say MP, I don't mean actual MP. You can use HMP if you'd like, and I'd say HMP+75 is the absolute top end, with it going as slow as HMP+180 if you are running a recovery run 12 hours after a big workout in the heat. 
                2. I agree in general that just using MP (or any target) is not the be all and end all. It's just a tool in the toolbox that you can use to judge whether your easy pace is too fast. Just as I was pointing out to Watson, if you can justify your faster than "prescribed" easy pace with other data like HRM, than you're fine. You can also justify being out of HRM if you're above your "prescribed" pace. But you can't be both out of HRM range and above prescribed pace .
                3. I think even conversational pace is dangerous, just because as I mentioned, I can have a conversation at MP for the beginning part of it. I know that's a common saying, but I would possibly change it to "carry conversational pace for 90+ minutes"
                4. I think the only true high cadence runner on this board is Flavio where his easy runs are like 200 SPM. I wouldn't consider anything less than 190 as high cadence. Anyway, yes, agreed you can hurt yourself if you're "too slow" but running 7:45 instead of 7:05 for easy runs would not fall in that category. Running 9:30? Probably.
                5. Finally - definitely agree on it ranging. I just had the range myself. Was running right around 8:30 for my run on Monday, but was at 7:55 for a good chunk of my run last night. 24 hours apart and my pace varies by 35 seconds. But there still is a cap: you can't just say well some days I feel good so I blast out 10 miles at 6:30 and call it an easy run. 

                5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                 

                Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                dpschumacher


                  Some asked why I got a coach. I want to take a crack the next few years at breaking my Dad's PR in the marathon. I don't have enough knowledge beyond reading a few books on how to train for a marathon. If I was just shooting for 5 or 10k I would be fine coaching myself.  I wanted something more adaptive to my results at any given time and someone I trust to bounce ideas off of.

                   

                  My Dad's PR is 2:37:01 in the marathon. He 2 weeks after his last college race for University of Wisconsin. He was a 1500 guy (3:41.2) and his other PR in 5k (13:57) and 10k (28:16) are completely out of reach. He was an all American in cross country. His marathon time is obviously soft, but he never ran another until is mid 40's so it is the one I have a shot at.

                   

                  I just need some help with long term planning, setting goals in between, and workouts geared to my weaknesses.  The guy I am having coach me is part of our running club and has 30 sub 2:35 marathons with a best at 2:23: xx.

                   

                  I have been out of running for so long I just needed some help once I get into real serious training.  I have run 16:02 5k and 34:32 10k. I think I can still breaky 10k or, but the 5k may be tough. I do think though through building endurance I can go 26.2 at 6 min mile pace

                  2019 Goal: Run every day

                  2019 Goal: Get to 165 lbs

                  2019 Goal: Get in shape to be able to run 2 marathons in 2020

                  CommanderKeen


                  Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                    Mark - That shirt is pretty slick - too bad it's not available on the US site. I'm sure shipping from NZ would probably be a deal breaker. That orange one is rapidly becoming my favorite singlet with how light it is. Plus DW says she likes it because she can see me coming from a long way off when I wear it.


                    DPS - Best of luck breaking your dad's PR.


                    Easy run discussions always get lively!

                    5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                     

                    Upcoming Races:

                    Dallas Marathon 12/15

                    flavio1980


                    weight loss complainer

                      Mark - That picture explains a lot. You’re looking very relaxed

                       

                      DPS - Re: injuries, there is only one strategy that works. Strength training and diligence with foam rolling.

                      Is it your lower back that hurts? That usually is a sign of weak glutes.

                       

                      Re coach, great choice:

                      You have a lot of potential (Genetics is a huge component), you might not run his times, but 15:30 is a given with proper work.

                      I’m sure Mark can corroborate, but having someone to look objectively at your training, someone who’s seen hundreds of athletes and situations is very helpful.

                      I can list a few examples of things I noticed since starting to have a coach at the beginning of this year:

                       

                      He told me to run 5 days a week instead of 7, do proper strength training instead of focusing on perfecting my form with drills and what not. I've also run less mileage. Kinds of things that only a professional can observe with an objective look at your training.

                       

                      Jmac - heh I’m KING of cadence!!!

                      Ok, seriously, my cadence is 170 for recovery, around 180 for easy runs and around 190 for races, maybe 200 for mile pace.

                      Unlike Mark I can run anything from a bit faster than walking all the way to sprints.

                      It's like I have 9 or 10 gears. I managed to run with my sister a while a go at around 7:30/km or 12min/mile.

                       

                      me - I have the task of arriving healthy to the start line on Sunday. I'm at 84kg/189lb and trying to slim down for Sunday, so my lunch was at the salad place instead of the buffets. I always overeat when I hit the buffet.

                      No more strength work this week, no playing the guitar (cause I sing along and it makes my throat hoarse), sleeping at the right time etc.

                      I probably still have 2 more GO's at scouting the course in google street view.

                      PRs: 1500m 4:54.1 3K 10:34 5K 18:05 HM 1:24:25 - Up next: Chase the HM PR

                      flavio1980


                      weight loss complainer

                        How about this weather. Race is on the 15th 

                        crazy weather

                        PRs: 1500m 4:54.1 3K 10:34 5K 18:05 HM 1:24:25 - Up next: Chase the HM PR

                        dpschumacher


                          Yea, my back issues come from getting my legs taken out from me while going for a dunk in high school.

                           

                          I messed it up pretty bad as I came down right in my back with no help from my arms or legs. To keep ku back health it needs constant core work to keep my back in line and leg work (1 leg dips etc) to make sure I keep my left and right sides even in strength.

                          2019 Goal: Run every day

                          2019 Goal: Get to 165 lbs

                          2019 Goal: Get in shape to be able to run 2 marathons in 2020

                          JMac11


                          Benevolent Leader

                            Flavio - I feel like I'm looking at a Boston forecast: every day around the race, except day of, looks great for a race.

                             

                            Keen - Did you see my comments on marathon training? just wondering what your thoughts are.

                            5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                            CommanderKeen


                            Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                              JMac - I do appreciate your (and everyone else's) feedback, it's quite helpful. With specific regard to what you mentioned:


                              1) Weekly Mileage - I'm nailing this! Working on week #8 of 70+
                              2) Long Runs - ~15 is what I've been doing so far. I'll need to pump those rookie numbers up.
                              3) Threshold Runs - This week was my first doing a pure T run, though those will continue. The 1k reps I do hit both T and VO2 MAX, both, though not as much as a pure workout of either type would.
                              4) Everything else. I guess I'm doing this, too!


                              I think I'll be able to hit the local group LRs given my girls' soccer schedules this fall, which will make those LRs with quality easier - if not, I can always just suck it up and do them all solo.

                              5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                               

                              Upcoming Races:

                              Dallas Marathon 12/15

                              watsonc123


                                I am high cadence.  I am around 195 at easy pace.  My easy pace is generally on the slow side of easy also (I just have really short strides).

                                PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

                                 

                                40+ PRs: 5km 20:34 (Jan 2019), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018)

                                 

                                2019 aims: Unlike 2017 & 2018, be consistent.  So get 40+ weeks of 40+ miles incl. two quality sessions (5 weeks achieved so far).