>Racing>2018 Sub-3. No rules. Run.
Cal - I thought it was hilarious that President Putin congratulated him after fight, but his Dad was fuming at him!
JMac - D) Sub 1:20 pace. Go big or go home.
5k - 18:29 (2018) 10k - 37:53 (2018) Half - 1:22:06 (2017) Full - 2:51:32 (2016)
A street-wise Hercules
Jmac - a couple of my club mates were doing this at my half marathon at the weekend in the build up to frankfurt. They did a few miles before and after. I'd do a couple of miles before then run the half at best case scenario MP then a couple to cool down too
Sling - I've used caffeine gum before and quite like it (stuff I used is called Bloc Head)
Mikkey and Cal - I already did my peaking race with my 10 miler 2 weekends ago. The goal specifically was not to race this. I don't need another indicator of where my fitness is at. Instead, I haven't really done a lot of MP this work, so I want the practice. Additionally, I need to practice getting gels and gatorade in. I have a fairly sensitive stomach, where if I don't "train" it, I will get very bad stitches during my races after taking in any sort of fluid or gel. So you can't choose something besides A or B! Also Cal, I think of recovery runs in terms of both pace and distance. Most of the research I've done talk about limiting recovery runs to an hour or less, which is why you'll often see people doubling the day after Quality days because they want to get their mileage up, but don't want to go out there for 1.5 hours in one run.
Fin and Sling - Thanks for your responses.
I will take any other responses people have! Thanks.
5K: 17:51 (5/18) | 10K: 36:21 (9/18) | HM: 1:20:39 (5/17) | FM: 2:46:17 (11/18)
Next Race: Joe Kleinerman 10K (1/5/19)
Goal Race: Boston (4/15/19)
Is jogging in place within the corral an option?
I say a 15 minute break is not much recovery and you'd still feel it during the half. Maybe even make it 5 miles before.
Back to lurking...
JMac: I'd do option A; waiting 15 min between won't make that much difference. And as Matt said you can up the pre-race distance a bit to compensate. Are you doing the SONO half for this again?
5K: 17:55 (2017) HM: 1:23:57 (2016) FM: 2:52:16 (2018)
Mikkey and Cal - I already did my peaking race with my 10 miler 2 weekends ago. The goal specifically was not to race this. I don't need another indicator of where my fitness is at. Instead, I haven't really done a lot of MP this work, so I want the practice. Additionally, I need to practice getting gels and gatorade in. I have a fairly sensitive stomach, where if I don't "train" it, I will get very bad stitches during my races after taking in any sort of fluid or gel. So you can't choose something besides A or B!
I'm with Mikkey and Cal. Race it. (Assuming: A. It's going to be good weather; B. It's a halfway decent course; and C. Your recovery from the 10 miler was fine.)
And just to annoy you, I'll try and counter your arguments. Why look at it as racing it is only for a fitness indicator? In fact, I agree that you got a great indicator in the 10 miler, and that's why I would race it. You're in sub 1:18 shape. Run 95% and you'll get a sub 1:19 or close. Why pass that up? Sure, it's very likely you'll return to this shape in prep for a half, and probably even surpass that, but you might not. No reason not to strike as everything aligns.
You don't need to practice MP. You've already proven you're a good racer, and that you know what you're doing in the marathon (and specifically the NYC marathon). You'll remember what you need to feel like at the particular points of the race. As for the fueling practice, It seems hard to train your stomach on one run. So if you haven't been doing it on your runs so far, I'm not sure how much one run will get you. I guess it's better than nothing, but not worth trading for a shiny new HM PR, in my opinion
But if you have to go with one of your options, I'd do the run 4 and then take a 15 min break. It seems like that option would actually help you with one of the key points to practicing 13 at MP. To me, the idea is getting used to MP with tired legs. So in addition to going in to it on regular mileage, you will be a little stiff at the beginning. The 15 minutes isn't really enough for your legs to recover. If anything, they'll freeze up a little bit. Seems like that's a better simulation of running the last 13 of a marathon as opposed to doing a 7 before that goes right in to 13 at MP.
Upcoming races: Houston HM (January 2019) | A Spring 2019 Marathon (Brighton?)
Matt - Thank you for your reply even though you're just a lurker! Jogging in place is probably not an option, we're packed in like sardines . Also, please be sure to de-lurk at some point, we love new(ish) people.
JT - Good memory. This upcoming weekend last year was the SONO half and I actually wanted to do that specific race again, but they moved it to next weekend, which isn't as useful for me since I like doing my final big workout of 13.1@MP 3 weeks before the race. So I replaced that with the the Staten Island Half.
JMac - I always had questions re recovery runs. Like we take a training plan, let's say Pfitz 70-85 and apply it slingrunner, you, me, Mikkey, Andres and madisonrunner. The same plan to all of us - several absolutely different runners, physically and psychologically. We apply the same rules to all these different runners. Do you think it makes sense? Ok. A run under hour is a recovery run - at 8mpm it will be around 7.5 miles. By definition of all those paid gurus it's a recovery run - but that "recovery" run will "kill" many not-so-active "runners", for example. OK, maybe it's an exaggeration. Then let's take another example - a 1 hour run at 6:30mpm... Is that a recovery run or not? In my world it's not. In the world of Marky Mark maybe it is. So, for me there is a huge difference between 13 miles run at 7:30mpm and 13 miles run at 9:30 mpm. One I would consider an MLR (maybe closer to tempo for me) and another one is closer to recovery - yes, it's long but it painfully slow. And at the end of the day the main criteria for me is how I feel - I wanna high mileage and and I don't wanna get injured. I run 13 miles (for example, can be 11 or 10) and if I feel my connective tissues are out of danger, I will continue. If I feel that connective tissues hurt I either run even slower or take a day off. That's a recovery for me. The thin line is to determine more or less precisely if your body parts are on the brink or in danger.
Re your coming HM - after few years of training I don't understand what is the problem to "get used to MP" when you running high mileage plan and ran plenty of miles faster than MP. The hard part for me is running faster than MP for longer distances, not running HM @ MP. If I run 13.1 mi at HMP I would feel much more confident at my ability to run 26.2 @MP. Running 13 @MP (even after 4 mi before it) will not give me any new information beyond the fact that I can run 13.1 @MP. Just another regular run, maybe just bit tougher than a regular run but pretty ineffective in a big picture of things.
Andres - Good to hear from you! I agree that I can probably go grab a PR, even with zero tapering going into the race. It won’t be easy doing it at the end of a full week, but I probably could go something like 1:19:. I’ll flip it back to you though: what’s the point of racing? Most likely, it’ll set me back a few days to recover from a true HM effort than just going and running the race at MP. If my real goal is the marathon, which it is, it seems foolish to go out there and run at HM. For me, the point of racing during any marathon build up is to get an idea of where your fitness is at, along with remembering what it feels like to race. I’ve accomplished that with my 10 mile. What I HAVEN’T accomplished is really remembering what MP work feels like while also practicing the fueling. If I had an iron stomach, it would be a waste. But I want to train myself to remember what it feels like to have gels/gatorades sloshing around in my stomach at MP, which for me is a big component of the marathon with how sensitive my stomach can be to stitches. Anyway, thanks for chiming in, it made me actually wonder if it’s worth it. I may split the difference here: run something like 11@MP and then try to hammer the last 2 miles as a sort of fast finish workout if I feel good.
Cal - your approach to recovery is interesting. I do agree it has different purposes and different definitions for certain runners. I guess since you’re not running huge Quality days yet, your recovery runs longer. But I can’t imagine going out for a big LT workout and then running 13 miles the next day, no matter how slow. I guess if you’re doing 90 miles a week all easy runs, there’s almost no such thing as a recovery run. I also agree with your Mark example, because I think recovery runs fit two components: short and slow. I guess I just think of recovery runs as differently from easy runs, specifically because they’re shorter and slower than easy runs. Regarding myself, I have a ton of confidence of going for sub 2:50 after putting up the 58:30 in my 10 miler two weeks ago. Running a 1:18 is not going to change that feeling, and I”m not even sure I could do that with zero taper going into the race. I do agree LT paced work is by far the most important part of marathon training, but your approach is basically saying running MP is not useful at all. There’s definitely a good segment of people out there that think that, because it’s not much different physically than just doing an easy run yet adds more stress to the system. However, running 13.1@MP for me is a big workout, and is a major component of most major marathon plans (Pfiz, Daniels, etc.) at the end of big weeks.
sling - I just go to Walgreens and buy caffeine pills. I believe they are 200mg a pill. One brand is Vivarin. I think it works for me since I never drink caffeine unless I'm using it for a race (or rarely a workout).
JMac - I would vote for 4 comfortably hard (10-20% slower than MP, like a long run) followed by your ~15 minute break to the start of the race, followed by the half at MP. If a HM PR is important to you than sure, go for a PR. But it may negatively impact your goal marathon so I'd be cautious. Really depends on your priorities. I do think it's important to run one effort of 10+ miles at MP during a marathon training cycle just so you know what that pace feels like. Otherwise you get to race day and are in danger of going out too fast..
I'm recovering pretty well, actually ran 2 miles today. I'm still pretty sore but I think the soreness will be gone by the end of the week. If I recover well and the weather looks good I'll try to knock a little bit more off my PR at the Madison Marathon which is the 2nd week of November. I've had good success in previous years running marathons within a month of each other. Strike when the iron is hot.
Marathon PR: 2:37:22 (2018) Goal Race: Milwaukee Marathon 4/6/19
Yay, race season is finally here!
Indy 2018: w13/18M 01 15 14 8.55 w/ 10x hill sprintsT 01 15 09 8.75 right foot pf soreW 00 48 00 5.72 00 41 34 5.20 Th -- -- -- URD feeling shit, low energyF 00 31 27 3.84 still not rightS 01 43 34 14.15 tm w/ 2wu + 3x3.1/0.5@6:31/8:34 + cd, 0.5%S -- -- -- 8.39 ==== 54.6
This week was a mess, with my body finally rebelling against the progress I was making. I crashed hard on Tue, just feeling rotten when I woke, so I decided to bail on the planned Q session. Wed was a further struggle and by Thur I was wrecked. No idea if I had a some sort of viral infection or it was just training overload as in addition to my energy levels dropping through the floor, I tightened up like crazy. All my leg muscles and a lovely case of PF too... argh!
Indy 2018: w14/18M 01 02 19 7.47 no hills as pf soreT 01 30 34 10.59 haggertyW -- -- -- URD Th -- -- -- URDF 00 29 50 3.67S 00 41 56 5.23 S 03 22 54 26.2 N. Ohio marathon... "fun" ==== 53.16
Still nursing the PF and with work stress being very high last week, I decided it was best to bag a few days and not push things too much. I had the $26 N. Ohio marathon planned for my 4 week out big Q block. Clearly pushing very hard was out of the question, but I hoped that the days off would at least allow me to get a good distance run in. Running on Sat felt ok, so on the basis of this I decided to go ahead and do it.
I was able to run something like 5 easy/comfortable (~7:25) + 5 pushing but comfortable, which turned out to be ~6:50. The plan was 5 more easy that went fine (~7:25) and then 6 at a similar pushing pace. I got 2 more of those done (~6:50), but at the 17 mile mark I could feel my legs starting to tighten and I decided to back off with 9 more to go. Unfortunately, I didn't catch it early enough and by 20 my legs were fully fried. The resulting shuffle home was not at all fun, but as I had no time goal, it was all sort of ok in the end.
My legs died so early on account of 2 things (i) 100% humidity or maybe 98%, anyway loads of something between fog and mist the whole way. I made sure to keep things between comfortable and comfortably hard and hydrated as much as possible, but I clearly misjudged it given the conditions and my "prep", and speaking of (ii) only getting an hour of sleep the night before due to watching the UFC and then having to drive down to the race. I was planning on just taking an easy long run give my preparations and had a solid debate with myself over the first 5 miles. I decided to try get some quality and paid for it. I knew making this decision would mean a few uncomfortable miles. I hadn't bargained for a solid 10k of urgh. Not the end of the world and it was frankly good to get over the mental hurdle of 26 miles again. Everything is more or less ok now, though my right quad is still sore. I guess I may have been favoring it due to the PF in that foot. Anyway, based on all of this and the lingering PF, I have now no time goal for the marathon in 4 weeks. Hopefully, the PF continues to heal and I can push below 3 but if not, I'll just run it and look towards longer term fitness.
JMac: I'd go for something along the lines of option A, but slightly modified. I think a full on HM effort might be too taxing. So something like 5-8 easy, then head to corral and get a dry shirt plus a gel and water. Then 10 at MP and if it feels good drop towards LT for the last mile, else hang in at MP and do a mile after to cool down. Don't do a long cool down. Get to recovery mode. The main thing is not to overdo it. Great job nailing another set of JD monster sessions too!
CalB: Great to see your runs really coming back together. I'm always impressed by your ability to knock out MLRs like they are going out of fashion. You won't be too far off a solid time come CIM.
JT: You've had a great cycle and I'm really looking fwd. to seeing how you get on. I guess it's good that you got the cold 2 weeks out! Looks like the weather gods are not too mad at you, so best behavior please!
Finbad: Nice race over a nasty looking course.
Sling: I know your position all too well. I kinda needed a full run, even though it sucked. Hope your legs have come around by now. Listen to your body and that will tell you if a couple of weeks is feasible. It's good to have the option at least.
BGS: As has been said. Just keep at it easy and your body/mind will come back around.
Madison: So, so impressive. Congrats on running a great race. Great report and it's awesome that your family is all into running. I'm 100% the oddball in my lot. I love how it's written everywhere that the first few miles should feel easy. Bah, nonsense. If you are looking to run a competitive PR, then the work starts pretty much from the off and it should feel like it. Fantastic pacing all the way through. I know it's soon, but any idea how low you can or want to go? Btw, if I read your prep correctly, you have your last meal ~15hrs before race time? Have you always done that or trial and error brought you there? hahaha... love that you're feeling good and looking to get right back at it!!
5k: 17:32 (11/18) -- 10k: 38:47 (07/17) -- 10m: 60:23 (08/17) -- 1/2: 1:22:32 (11/17) -- full: 2:49:26 (04/17)
2019 Goals: Assault on 2:40! Next up: G. Isle 1/2 (3/24); Martian 1/2 (4/13); Toledo full (4/28)
Sorry folks - fell behind a bit and missed the races this weekend. Congrats to those that raced this week.
Madison: Awesome time you threw down - so impressive and to be that fast at mile 26! Sounds like an awesome day! Thanks for the info on your warm up routine and the race recap as well.
Sling: Sounds like the right call to make and about at the right time. Still lots of fitness you gained in that one.
Finbad: Nice recap and congrats on the finish!
Subdood: Hope you're feeling better!
BGS: Hope you feel better. Still a nice looking week.
JT: Hope things are looking good to go. I think you are looking quite solid based on your cycle. Glad the cold cleared itself up.
Calbears: Solid mileage!
JMAC: Congrats on the mileage PR Agree on the feeling from day to day, but sounds like your body was indeed fighting something. Although even the EZ days take me by surprise from time to time. So many variables that could be off from one day to the next. As for your planned HM/workout I'm not going to suggest racing vs a workout as I tend to not race very often myself. For a workout race I too like a bit longer EZ warmup followed by the 10+ plus at FM pace. Really similar to a Daniels track workout in his marathon plans. I've done quite a few races in that way.
Kram: With the marathon distance and the 100% humidity any effort is eventually going to take it's toll. Good job gutting it out. Hope the PF resolves itself soon.
Me: Pretty big volume (82+ miles) week with some decent looking quality (almost 3 days worth if I count the progression on the hills on Monday). Decently happy with the 5 X 1K effort on Wednesday, but a few of them were bit slower than my hopeful well under sub 17 pacing perhaps due to the heat and some recent mileage in my legs! My Friday 4 mile tempo effort was a bit too fast and then I pushed it towards the end to where it felt like full on race effort in the last mile. Thinking I need to back off a bit on that LT pace until the heat subsides since my primary goal is still maximizing my fitness (with importance on threshold pacing) for a HM. Speaking of which what is the biggest workout that folks do for a good indicator of HM fitness? How long can you run at goal HM pace (5-6 miles straight up?) during a typical full training week? I've seen some suggest 3 or 4 X 2 mile repeats at slightly faster than goal pace as good indicators. I saw someone try a 3 X 3 mile at goal pace, but thinking that's close to race effort on top of big volume? Right now I'm about 7 weeks out from my target HM and also targeting a 5K towards the end of the month (assuming the weather breaks some). Someone please send some of that fall air down into Florida
Weekly Summary Monday, Oct 01, 2018 thru Sunday, Oct 07, 2018
5K: 16:44 (11/18) | 10K: 36:09 (2/18) | HM: 1:17:15 (12/18) | FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)
Weather - As a fellow Daniels follower, I figured you would agree with me. Anyway, in terms of HM fitness, it's a bit tricky. I think you should be able to hold HMP for 6-7 miles. It's almost equivalent at any race: you can generally hold race pace for about half the distance in training. As usual though, the indicator is racing. Given you are training for a half and not a 5k, your 5k time should translate nicely to half.
Kram - Thanks for the advice. 1 hour of sleep! that is nuts, I'm usually delirious with that amount of sleep, I cannot believe you ran a marathon.
Madison - Thanks for the advice and especially for sticking around after your race. Hopefully you do stay here, we can always use your advice as a fast guy.
Me - My cold took a turn for the worse. I've taken 2 days off and we'll see how tomorrow goes. So I think racing the half this weekend, if I end up making it, is definitely out of the question. I don't want to push my lungs given the cough I've developed and have this turn into pneumonia (which I did for my first marathon). I'll be coming back to this forum with taper advice though. I don't know how to adjust my taper given it effectively started a week early. I was looking to do 70 this week, and then something like 60, 48, 26 (without race), but do I even need to taper next week at 60? At most I'll be running 55 this week, so feels like maybe I should go up to 70 next week (almost like I reversed the weeks), and then proceed down as usual. But we can cross that bridge when we figure out whether I can even run this weekend. Trying to play it safe, but having a cold at this time is super awkward. Earlier in the cycle you can just bounce right back and take it as a down week, deeper into the taper you just count it as off days and resume your taper as scheduled. But sick with 4 weeks to go? Not sure how to adjust.
JMac -- I really hope you didn't catch what I have. I started taking antibiotics earlier this week (upper respiratory infection), and I'm feeling much better now. But it has taken me so long to kick this thing, that I have no idea how to approach my "backup" marathon on October 21 (I've basically had a 5-week taper ...). Regarding your half marathon strategy, I was onboard with running it at MP as a somewhat hard training run and fueling practice, with a few w/u miles, and 1 or 2 c/d miles. But if your cough worsens, I'd sit it out and focus on getting well as quickly as possible. Yeah, the timing sucks -- I think I'd do what you are thinking, with the 2 weeks reversed in terms of mileage, but I'd be curious to hear what others have to say about it.
Thanks All for the kind words regarding getting well and for my decision not to run while sick. I was feeling sorry for myself on Sunday, but found some inspiration from some recent local marathon results. A 15-yr-old girl ran a 2:40:03 at the Twin Cities Marathon in her marathon debut. That's almost Madisonrunner fast! And there was a small marathon in Ely, MN (northern MN, near Canada) that includes a "full portage" division -- the participants carry a canoe for the entire marathon! There were 5 entrants; 4 of them finished, and the winner average around 12:20 pace. Crazy. (It looks like an absolutely beautiful area to run. However, the portage racers could really only see the inside of their canoe and maybe their feet.)
My "backup" race will be on Oct 21 in Mankato, MN, and the weather looks decent (mid-40-ish). But if I'm not feeling up to a sub-3 attempt, I might decide to bail early and maybe give it one last try in November in Madison, WI, three weeks later.
Good luck to JT and anyone else racing this weekend!
JMAC: Thanks for the input. Pretty much similar to what I was thinking. If one could hit 6-7 miles at HM race pace during a full volume week the taper and race itself should hopefully take care of the rest. 4 miles was my limit last week, but that pace was likely a bit too fast. Thinking also that as one gets faster, especially for sub & elites they might not be able to hold race pace for even that long considering they are almost at there threshold pace anyways. Agree with subdood and don't think you should push it all this weekend if still feeling down. No point as there is more to lose than what you could ever gain in a single workout.
Subdood - good luck! You should still be good to go for the most part especially with good weather.