Help critique my interval workout. (Read 854 times)

    But part of the plan is learning how to hold the pace and not have to slow down to achieve them in the latter part of the workout. They would actually like to see less experienced runners to run the fast intervals at a pace closer to their 10k pace as most will do exactly like Nathan did, thats run them too fast.

     

    I didn't notice where I had to slow down in the latter part of the workout?

     

    If I maintained a relatively even pace on the intervals and kept my HR within the suggested parameters what makes you say that I ran them too fast?

     

    I will admit, I have a very hard time trying to figure out a pace out there on my own and really had no idea what my splits were going to be until I got back to the house and checked.  Even on my longer intervals I'm not sure I truly "hold the pace", but more accurately adjust the pace as I get farther into the interval by speeding up or slowing down to reach the target pace.  That's why these 400m intervals are so difficult for a new runner, running 400m in 1:50 vs. 1:46 doesn't seem like much of a difference, how can you pace yourself to within 1 second per 100m without any feedback?

    Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27


    And in the end...

      The Hanson's plan does go off a goal pace, but it must be realistic.  In this case, it probably is. 

       

      I am skeptical, but just from what I've seen over the years...

       

      A half-marathon tells you a little about your marathon potential, but only a little.  Shorter distances tell you even less.  As gets often repeated, it's the endurance that needs to develop in order to hold a given pace for 26.2 miles... and that seldom comes the first time one jumps from the half to full marathon.  I think that it would be a significant accomplishment to stretch your half-marathon pace to a full marathon in one year... even (or especially) for a newer runner and 1st time marathon.

       

      I don't have the details of the plan so it may well be good preparation, but I don't see how any plan, in a single marathon training cycle, is going to extend half-marathon pace to a full marathon.  Speed will not be the issue... endurance will.

       

      Give it a go!  I have no problem being wrong...

      ------------------------

      The GITM is moot.

        I think that it would be a significant accomplishment to stretch your half-marathon pace to a full marathon in one year... even (or especially) for a newer runner and 1st time marathon.

         

        It just depends on how well his body holds up, how well training goes and how lucky he is on race day. Yes, that may be asking a lot, but it is well within the realm of possibility. If I remember correctly from some of your other comments, you have had tremendous periods of improvement. I started running in July 2010 and have found with consistent training the seconds and minutes drop off. 

        Dont call it a comeback

          I am skeptical, but just from what I've seen over the years...

           

          A half-marathon tells you a little about your marathon potential, but only a little.  Shorter distances tell you even less.  As gets often repeated, it's the endurance that needs to develop in order to hold a given pace for 26.2 miles... and that seldom comes the first time one jumps from the half to full marathon.  I think that it would be a significant accomplishment to stretch your half-marathon pace to a full marathon in one year... even (or especially) for a newer runner and 1st time marathon.

           

          I don't have the details of the plan so it may well be good preparation, but I don't see how any plan, in a single marathon training cycle, is going to extend half-marathon pace to a full marathon.  Speed will not be the issue... endurance will.

           

          Give it a go!  I have no problem being wrong...

           

          We will see.  My only experience so far in year over year improvement in performance was knocking 5 minutes off my time on a local 4 mile cross country run from last year that I ran earlier this month.  Similar conditions and effort levels.

           

          It might help that I should be running 20 - 25lbs lighter on my marathon than I was running in my half marathon back in April as well, but I'm still a big guy and the temperature is still seems to affect me a little more than most.  On a warm day I end up pouring more water on me than I end up drinking.  Hopefully the weather will turn out good because that will have a lot to do with my time on race day.

           

          That could be why my intervals went so well this morning.  It was a nice crisp morning and I never felt overheated at all.

          Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27


          Fat butt on couch

            I'm struggling with that too, although you are supposed to use your current 5K or 10K time to set your interval pace.  But your Marathon pace Tempo runs and your long runs are based off your goal race time.

              

             

            That makes more sense.  You have little room for error on intervals before you go too hard on them.  But MP tempo runs are more about getting used to being smooth/comfortable at that pace and getting strong enough to handle it.  So intervals are geared to current fitness, and MP tempos (I'm guessing they are fairly long) help bridge you to your goal.

             

            I see nothing wrong with that.  

             

            Regular tempos...20-30-odd minutes....I would still match to current fitness though.  I'm betting they do.

             

            Someone locally has the book, I will need to get in line to borrow it so I'm not guessing.  Smile

            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

             

              Nice workout, but basing 12 x 400 w/400m jog off of a marathon goal for a runner with relatively little background in the sport is, well, not very smart.

               

              The capabilities that you would be drawing on for such a workout would be more like your 3000m capabilities, so it would make sense to base the paces of this workout off of a 3k or maybe 5k race time. I know you are using a Hanson's plan and they probably base things off of a goal MP, but in executing this plan, I am sure that any coach would be much more interested in your current 3k or 5k ability when setting goal paces for this workout than the eventual marathon goal.

               

              It's for these reasons that it's hard to say whether you ran this workout too fast or draw any conclusions from the workout with respect to your marathon goal. I didn't spend a ton of time looking at the workout, but if the last ones are as fast or faster than the first ones, and you are still alive to fight another day, you probably didn't run too hard or too fast.

                The number of words already posted in this thread to analyze a single (very simple) workout very early in a marathon training program is already staggering, but I'll add a few more...

                 

                Sounds like a decent workout--what my buddies and I call our "easy quarters" workout. You do it early in a season, as kind of a reintroduction to speed work. It's not super important to worry about exact pace, just the feeling of running fast but controlled and turning your legs over.

                 

                Put it in the books and move on. Nice job.

                Runners run.

                  Spaniel and Jeff both made me realize that I probably misspoke by saying these intervals were based on my goal marathon pace.

                   

                  There is a chart that shows all the paces that lines up with your goal marathon pace and then there are separate charts that set your pace for your interval workouts.

                   

                  My goal marathon pace is actually a couple notches slower than what I would line up based on my PR 5K time, and the pace that I followed for these intervals is based on my PR 5K. 

                   

                  If I went based on the 5K time that lines up with my goal marathon pace it would have been even slower, closer to a 7:40 pace and if I slowed it down to my 10K pace that would end up closer to an 8:00 pace.  That for sure wouldn't have been a very challenging workout if that's what this is supposed to be.  Seems odd to be running 3 miles of 400m intervals at a pace you can maintain for 6+ miles.

                   

                  My PR 5K time actually lines up to a 3:40 marathon goal time, I do think that is overly optimistic right now for sure.

                   

                  To me my goal of a 45 minute 10K in 2013 is going to be more of a challenge than the 3:50 marathon will be, maybe I'm underestimating the marathon.

                  Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                  Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

                    The number of words already posted in this thread to analyze a single (very simple) workout very early in a marathon training program is already staggering, but I'll add a few more...

                     

                    Sounds like a decent workout--what my buddies and I call our "easy quarters" workout. You do it early in a season, as kind of a reintroduction to speed work. It's not super important to worry about exact pace, just the feeling of running fast but controlled and turning your legs over.

                     

                    Put it in the books and move on. Nice job.

                     

                    LOL.  Thanks for the input.  I think you are right.  I'll quit obsessing.

                    Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

                      Seems odd to be running 3 miles of 400m intervals at a pace you can maintain for 6+ miles.

                       

                      Why? The point as mikey just mentioned is to get some faster running in without a ton of effort. Making fast easy.

                        Why? The point as mikey just mentioned is to get some faster running in without a ton of effort. Making fast easy.

                         

                        Fair enough, but I thought part of the point of the speed workouts in their plan was to get some LT runs in early in the cycle.  I think if I was running an 8:00 pace on 400m intervals with 400m recoveries I wouldn't ever get to my LT.  As it worked out, I don't think I got my average HR on an interval to what I think my LT is until the very last interval.  Before that I was just barely peaking over LT levels right at the end of the intervals and dropping back down again.   And that was running 20 seconds or so faster than I was supposed to (which was unintended).

                        Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                        Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

                          Fair enough, but I thought part of the point of the speed workouts in their plan was to get some LT runs in early in the cycle.  I think if I was running an 8:00 pace on 400m intervals with 400m recoveries I wouldn't ever get to my LT.  As it worked out, I don't think I got my average HR on an interval to what I think my LT is until the very last interval.  Before that I was just barely peaking over LT levels right at the end of the intervals and dropping back down again.   And that was running 20 seconds or so faster than I was supposed to (which was unintended).

                           

                          You are writing as if you know what you are talking about, but none of this makes any sense to me. If you want to train intelligently, the first step is to speak more simply and avoiding the physiological hoo-hah.

                           

                          You remind me of a lot of the folks I went to philosophy grad school with -- very intelligent, but their intelligence created more problems than it solved.


                          Fat butt on couch

                            Fair enough, but I thought part of the point of the speed workouts in their plan was to get some LT runs in early in the cycle.  I think if I was running an 8:00 pace on 400m intervals with 400m recoveries I wouldn't ever get to my LT. 

                             

                            LT is classically defined as around the pace you can sustain for an hour (somewhat less in less-conditioned runners).  Anything faster than that, your lactate level is slowly building...slowly at first, more quickly if you continue to accelerate.

                             

                            Frankly 400s are pretty short for marathon training, when I bothered to do them they were sub-5K pace with only a minute recovery.  But I would not replicate that workout with where you are at.  If the workout felt challenging I would stop thinking about what mythical pace you were trying to hit and be happy you were not crashing and slowing down when you finished the last few (ie going out too fast).

                             

                            I know you like the HRM but this is where it can get you in trouble.  Your HR does not change instantaneously with effort.  With a 400m you can be accumulating a good amount of fatigue and your HR is only showing the effort for the last 100m or so.  So you think you were barely getting to LT, but you could be under it much of the time....your intevals just aren't long enough for the HRM to reflect what you are doing.

                            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                             

                              You are writing as if you know what you are talking about, but none of this makes any sense to me. If you want to train intelligently, the first step is to speak more simply and avoiding the physiological hoo-hah.

                               

                              You remind me of a lot of the folks I went to philosophy grad school with -- very intelligent, but their intelligence created more problems than it solved.

                               

                              Okay, I thought these were supposed to be speed workouts, not easy workouts.  I ran this as a speed workout which is what I thought the intent of the training plan was.

                               

                              MTA:

                               

                              I mentioned the part about the Lactate Threshold because that's how Bhearn classified them when he was analyzing the difference between the Hanson plan and Pfitz's plan.

                               

                              I have used 90% of my max HR as what I thought my personal threshold level because that seems to be about the avg HR of what I can maintain for an hour.  If I go over 175 and keep it there I can't keep that up longer than an hour.

                               

                              When it all comes down to it I was just very suprised that I ran these as fast as I did at my perceived effort level that also matched up with my HRM.

                              Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                              Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

                                Okay, I thought these were supposed to be speed workouts, not easy workouts.  I ran this as a speed workout which is what I thought the intent of the training plan was.

                                 

                                 Why should a speed workout be hard?