Hanson's Marathon Project (Read 2110 times)

    I plan on doing a tune up race (or a couple).  He does address this. I can't remember exactly what he said but it was along the lines of how to adjust the schedule to accomodate these races.  I can check the book tonight.

     

    In addition to the GMP tempos there are also "strength" intervals which are done at GMP minus 10 seconds per mile.  Which according to Hansons is pretty close to HMP (or LT pace).  You're thinking there's not enough true tempo as in 10k-15k paced work?

     

    I don't have the book but I did read an article today where this was addressed. He said to skip the Thursday tempo workout that week and run at an easy pace instead. The race on the weekend will make up for the lost stimulus from the missed tempo.

     

    The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

     

    2013 Goals:

    5k = sub 21:00

    HM = sub 100 minutes

    Run = 3650 / 2 miles

    Bike = 3500 miles

    Swim = 150 miles

    Race 1st HIM


    Canuck

      That's correct, you adjust the week by removing the tempo and replacing it with the race.  I have my adjusted plan in my log if anyone want to see what I've done to adjust my weeks where there are races.  I've also slightly shortened the Saturday easy runs in those weeks - i.e. down from 8-10 to 6 as well as I'm using the races as fitness gauges and so want to have a slight "taper".  In one week, I didn't completely remove the Thursday tempo, just shortened it, as the race on Sunday is just a 15K and it's early enough in the plan that I'll still be pretty fresh.

      PRs: 47:54 (10K); 1:46:36 (HM); 3:50:52 (FM)

      Recovering from injured knee (PCL/Lateral Meniscus)

      onemile


         I have my adjusted plan in my log if anyone want to see what I've done to adjust my weeks where there are races.  I've also slightly shortened the Saturday easy runs in those weeks - i.e. down from 8-10 to 6 as well as I'm using the races as fitness gauges and so want to have a slight "taper".  In one week, I didn't completely remove the Thursday tempo, just shortened it, as the race on Sunday is just a 15K and it's early enough in the plan that I'll still be pretty fresh.

         

         

        Thanks - It's nice to see how others have adjusted the plan.

          So in their pace charts they have a recovery pace, an "A" easy pace and a "B" easy pace.  But in the plan I was looking at on most days it just said "Easy" for the run not "A" Easy, "B" Easy or Recovery.

           

          Do they break this down somewhere or do you just go by what you feel like that day or do I just need to break down and buy the book?

           

          Thanks, Nathan

          Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27


          I'm back!

            The book doesn't really explain that either. In fact, I found I number of outright mistakes and inconsistencies in the book.

            Venomized


            Drink up moho's!!

              The book talks about easy pace being 1 or 2 minutes off your marathon pace, that criteria almost lines up with the A and B paces, just a bit slower.

               

              A 4 hr marathon is a 9:09 pace and the book B pace is 10:15 and the A pace is 11:00.  Like I said, close to the 1 - 2 minute range but not exactly.

                So in their pace charts they have a recovery pace, an "A" easy pace and a "B" easy pace.  But in the plan I was looking at on most days it just said "Easy" for the run not "A" Easy, "B" Easy or Recovery.

                 

                Do they break this down somewhere or do you just go by what you feel like that day or do I just need to break down and buy the book?

                 

                Thanks, Nathan

                 

                They never really call out a "recovery" run on the plan and only use the term "easy" when its not a long, tempo, speed or strength session. The "A" and "B" easy pace range of 1 to 2 minutes slower then your goal marathon pace is supposed to represent your ability to choose the intensity for the easy workout based on how you are feeling. For the most part, it seems they would have you running more of a "B" pace the day after one of their "SOS" workouts such as the long run, tempo, speed of strngth workouts. But if you're feeling really got after one of those efforts you can bump up the pace a bit. by Saturdays run you should be ready again for the "A" pace easy run in prep for your Sunday long run.

                 

                I haven't finished the book yet, but thats what I got from it so far.

                 

                The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                 

                2013 Goals:

                5k = sub 21:00

                HM = sub 100 minutes

                Run = 3650 / 2 miles

                Bike = 3500 miles

                Swim = 150 miles

                Race 1st HIM

                  Burnt Toast, since you are a low HR kind of guy, what do you make of the long run being at a little faster pace than easy?

                   

                  I'm on board with everything else I think, still just haven't wrapped my head around that.  I'm worried that with the intervals and the long tempo run if you add in the moderate paced long run there isn't going to be enough recovery time in there.  Of course this is not a base building plan so it isn't something they are expecting you to maintain year round either, so maybe a little wear down is what is expected. 

                  Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                  Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

                    Burnt Toast, since you are a low HR kind of guy, what do you make of the long run being at a little faster pace than easy?

                     

                    I'm on board with everything else I think, still just haven't wrapped my head around that.  I'm worried that with the intervals and the long tempo run if you add in the moderate paced long run there isn't going to be enough recovery time in there.  Of course this is not a base building plan so it isn't something they are expecting you to maintain year round either, so maybe a little wear down is what is expected. 

                     

                    I'm going to keep recording my HR, but not pay attention to it very much. I think if you want to be successful with this plan you should stick to it and follow its advice and direction and forgo some type of self created hybrid system, at least until you've experience what they are selling. HR for me will only be used as an stress indicator and used for TRIMP and training load stress calculations.

                     

                    The slightly faster pace on the long run is supposed to be training you for the rigors of the final 16 miles of a marathon where as most other plans prepare you for the first 16 miles. As I look over the pacing that the plan suggest, they really fall in line with a lot of other pace calculators and methods out there. For example, I'm going to target a 3:30:00 marathon which is roughly an 8:12 pace. The Hanson long run calls for a goal marathon pace plus 45 to 60 seconds so that is an 8:57 to 9:12 pace. If I use the McMillian calculator and input my best 5k time (which I believe to be slow compared to my current fitness) the easy pace is an 8:23 to 9:40 pace and puts the Hanson's pace right in the middle. Triathlon coach Joel Friel perscribes a lot of Zone 2 running for the long and easy runs and my calculated Zone 2 pace is 8:44 to 9:53 with a HR of 152 to 160.

                     

                    As for the lack of recovery, the Hanson's believe in active recovery. The Monday and Thursday workouts could easily be done at your MAF HR if you'd like which will probably put you in the upper end of the slower side of the easy pace called for in the plan. If you feel that a MAF HR pace would be slower, I'm sure thats not a problem either as long as you're getting that time on your feet in and not tearing yourself down doing it.

                     

                    They have mentioned several times in the reading that I've completed so for that the biggest concern or problem that new marathoners, as well as seasoned runners, have with the plan is the seem to run to hard on the easy days and have trouble hitting the paces correctly on the orther runs such as the tempo, speed and strength workouts. They also say that less experienced runners should run their speedworks closer to 10k pace instead of 5k pace. So if you feel you are not recovering well form the faster running, slow it down on the easy stuff and stay towards the slower end of the speed workout pacing. It seems that recovery after intervals should be adeqate if you hit the pacing and not overtax yourself by running them too hard and burning yourself out over the last intervals.

                     

                    The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                     

                    2013 Goals:

                    5k = sub 21:00

                    HM = sub 100 minutes

                    Run = 3650 / 2 miles

                    Bike = 3500 miles

                    Swim = 150 miles

                    Race 1st HIM

                      Thanks for the detailed reply.

                       

                      I guess I'm going to just commit to following their plan and see where it takes me. 

                       

                      My best 5K time predicts a 3:40 marathon and my most recent half marathon that was warm and windy and on a tough course predicts a 4:00 marathon so I'm going to split those and do my training based on a 3:50 goal time.  For my first marathon I'll be happy with anything under 4:00 though.

                      Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                      Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

                      jedigunnie26.2


                      BQ in 2013

                        BT - a 3:30 marathon is a 8:00 pace.

                        PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

                         

                        2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

                         

                        2013

                        Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

                        Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

                        Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

                         

                        Up Next:

                        Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

                        RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

                        Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

                          BT - a 3:30 marathon is a 8:00 pace.

                           

                          Haha, I meant to type 3:35:00 but at this point, they're both wishful thinking.

                           

                          The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                           

                          2013 Goals:

                          5k = sub 21:00

                          HM = sub 100 minutes

                          Run = 3650 / 2 miles

                          Bike = 3500 miles

                          Swim = 150 miles

                          Race 1st HIM


                          fake it till you make it

                            I finished reading the book this week.  Interesting read.  Because I  am impulsive, I purchased the 45-60 mpw plan from the website.    I've done Pftiz 18/55 for my current marathon PR, was considering another Pfitz plan or a RunningWizard plan, but I think I'm going with this Hansons plan for no better reason than I think I'd like it.  Might not be the smartest plan for me but I want to enjoy my training and I think I'd enjoy this plan. I am going to tweak the mileage a tiny bit, mostly making all 6 mile easy runs an 8 mile run and probably change one or two 18 milers to a 20 because for me the marathon is still a huge mental game and I need the reassurance of that longer run (and I enjoy it). 

                              The book doesn't really explain that either. In fact, I found I number of outright mistakes and inconsistencies in the book.

                               Given your good analysis on that Hanson/Pfitz thread, I'm curious about what these issues are.  (The book is on my holiday gift list, so I won't get a chance to see it for a couple of weeks.)


                              I'm back!

                                 Given your good analysis on that Hanson/Pfitz thread, I'm curious about what these issues are.  (The book is on my holiday gift list, so I won't get a chance to see it for a couple of weeks.)

                                 

                                I should have made a list. But here are a few that come to mind.

                                 

                                I found the various tables telling you how fast to run your workouts a little odd. (One general problem is that sometimes the paces given are per mile, and other times they are per 400m, 800m, etc., and it could be more clearly indicated which is which -- you have to pay attention. Using the word "pace" here is not ideal. To me my 3-mile pace is the pace (per mile) I would run over 3 miles, not how long it would take me to run 3 miles, but OK, not a big deal.)

                                 

                                For speed workouts, you look up based on your 5k or 10k goal -- which, wait, we're training for a marathon here, right? Presumably this is the time you have recently or think you could run a 5k or a 10k? The given paces seem to be just a tad slower than 5k pace. OK. But why not just say that?

                                 

                                For the strength workouts, they do just tell you outright, run them at MP - 10 sec. Great. But then they give you a table -- this time indexed by marathon or half marathon goal. But wait. If I look at 2:59 marathon goal, that's the same row as 1:29:30 half-marathon goal (and about 10 sec. faster than 2:59 marathon pace). But a 2:59 marathon is not at all the same as a 1:29:30 half! The "half marathon goal" column is completely wrong, giving simply half the times in the "marathon goal" table, instead of equivalent performances. Now, this table is completely unnecessary anyway, but anyone foolish enough to use it by looking up their half marathon time will wind up running their LT work way too fast.

                                 

                                For the tempo workouts, aka MP runs, again the table is completely superfluous, but at least this time they got the half-marathon column right.

                                 

                                The training intensity chart, pages 82-83, has a few problems. They don't really define recovery, A/easy, or B/easy. But the 10K speed and 5K speed columns -- what are those for? What they seem to show is paces for equivalent performances at 10K or 5K, based on marathon time. So, e.g., run your speed workouts at your 5K pace (doesn't exactly agree with the earlier speed tables). OK. But what is the 10K column for? Should I instead, sometimes, run speed workouts at 10K pace? I don't think the text indicates this. In fact, the accompanying text is very confusing:

                                 

                                ... the 10K and 5K columns [will be your reference] for your speed workouts. Keep in mind that actual 5K and 10K races times are going to be more accurate than this chart. If you have raced those distances, use your finishing times to guide your speed workouts.

                                 

                                So that says to me, if I've raced 10K, look in the 10K column to guide my speed workout. But I don't think I should be running my speed workouts (should be close to VO2max) at 10K pace vs. 5K pace just based on which distance I happen to have raced most recently!

                                 

                                In the description of the Advanced Plan, page 100, they say

                                 

                                To get into the speed workouts, follow the sequence provided in Chapter 3. Begin with the 12x400 workouts, then the 8x600s, 6x800s, 5x1000s, 4x1200s, and finally the 3x1600 workout. When you get to this point, you have 4 weeks left of speed. At that point, work back down the pyramid and do the 4x1200s, 5x1000s, and 6x800s, finishing the last week of the speed segment with the 12x400 workout.

                                 

                                Fine. Except, well, that's not what the plan shows. First, there's a ladder workout between the 1200s and the 1600s. Second, there are only 3 weeks of speed left then, not 4. Third, the remaining speed workouts in the table are 3x1600, 6x800, 3x1600. I can only assume that the text is based on an earlier version of the plan -- or vice versa? So, what does it actually say in the referenced Chapter 3?

                                 

                                Once the top of the ladder is reached (from shortest-duration workouts to the longest-duration workouts), you are then free to do the workouts that fit best with your optimal development.

                                 

                                OK. So that's a third way to do the speed workouts!

                                 

                                The Race Equivalency chart, beginning on page 122, shows equivalent performances at different distances. The numbers here look close to McMillan's calculator. Great. But the numbers in some of the earlier tables don't agree. E.g. in the Race Equivalency chart, 20:00 5K = 41:33 10K. But in the Speed Workout table, "5K goal" of 20:00 = "10K goal" of 42:15, making me wonder again whether I'm actually interpreting the table correctly. The 10K times in this table are actually close to Purdy equivalents for the 5K times, though slightly slower. Good enough, I guess, but why be inconsistent? The columns in the Tempo Workout table (marathon vs. half marathon) also are close to Purdy values, and don't match the Race Equivalency chart.

                                 

                                Other things... I was annoyed to see "lactic acid" throughout the text. One place they said "lactic acid (lactate)", but then went back to referring to it, incorrectly, as lactic acid.

                                 

                                I disagree with some of the stuff in the nutrition and hydration chapter -- the message is a little too close to the sports-drink industry party line for my comfort. Not an issue of correctness or consistency, but I thought I'd mention it.

                                 

                                There's more, but as I said, I should have made a list, and didn't.

                                 

                                For the most part, I'm willing to chalk these problems up to sloppy editing. It just feels like the book was thrown together hastily. Also for the most part, I guess, I'm just being picky, and most people won't be very affected by or even notice these problems. But a better presentation would have given me more confidence in the plans. Anyway, I'm looking to try something different, and I'm interested enough to start in on a Hansons plan for Boston, adding miles to get up to ~80 mpw.