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Hit a wall... (Read 1279 times)

    Mikeymike - Please feel free to come join us over in Jake's Bets. I was going to suggest a moderator and was hoping that Trent would be willing, but witnesses and outside opinions are definitely welcome. Janell

    Roads were made for journeys...

      I propose we move this to a new group: Jake's Wagers. That way, since he likes to make wagers, we can keep them all in the same place.
      Oh, great. Another group no one will pay any attention to. Probably including me.
      Jake, your mandatory times for the short intervals are faster than I am capable of at the moment, so that is not a fair condition.
      Since when is life fair? And out of curiosity - have you ever *tried* just running a kind of fast lap around a track to see what you can do? Sub-bet # 1 (you can let me know if I win): when you get around to trying it, I'll bet you're amazed at how fast you can run. Even if it's just a lap.
      . Three 5K's on top of my current racing commitments is a little tough, but probably doable..
      Doable? It's eight months, woman. It's easy. Suck it up. Virtual races is fine. Although actual races will make you run faster and give me a better clue as to whether I need to go find a flower shop(pe). Doesn't that last (pe) make it classy?
      When's Memorial day? March or May? I get them confused... I'm thinking May. If so, then no problem. If March, I may not be able to meet that. To be continued over in Jake's Wagers (social groups category)...
      See you there, if I can find it. I'm kind of special when it comes to computers. Modified to add: it's May - the END of May. Quit trying to cheat me already. Sheesh.
      E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
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        Reply is over in your group. Tongue modified to add: http://www.runningahead.com/groups/gorilla For the computer impaired...

        Roads were made for journeys...

          Heading back to the original question, even before reading the posts here I was going to say the same thing... Number 1 - Slow down! Yes - you can ALWAYS slow down. Not necessary to slow down all the time, but certainly do it on your long run. Number 2 - Walk Breaks. Again, not needed all the time, but something to try on your once a week long run. I run 4 of my runs a week (4-8K) straight through, and then do my long run with walk breaks every 10 or so minutes. Best of luck!
          -Jess
            Kimmer - I see from your log you tried the 15/5/15 yesterday. How'd it go?

            Roads were made for journeys...

              I like your chances of winning this bet, Jake, but I wonder why you have such a bug up your but for the 400s and 800s since, a.) 1600s are a much more valuable workout for races in the one-hour range and, b.) for someone looking to lop such large chunks of time off training needs to be a blunt instrument, not a laser-guided surgical strike. So 800s/400s vs 1600s is really splitting hairs. And where in the hell did you get 2:00 or 2:15 pace? You mean per 400 I assume, as in 8:00-9:00 mile pace. In other words a good 4:00 per mile faster than any mile I can see in Janell's log and a good 2:00 per mile faster than her goal 10k pace. In other words WAY too frickin fast. This is your bet and between you and Janell but since the conversation is happening in public I figured I'd ask.
              Okay, Mikey. I get it. If I post that the sky is blue, you'll post that it's pink. Fair enough. Since you seem desperately eager to argue about something, let's argue. Maybe on another thread though? You start it, I’ll come represent the blue sky brigade. But since you’re so intensely curious, I’ll summarize: the bottom line is that Wingz here has to get in at least some training at or below goal pace. Period. Whether tempo or interval, there is no alternative to training at or below goal pace. She may have to build up to that pace ... but it's not optional. She's got to get her legs moving faster to get faster. Any suggestion to the contrary is just plain wrong. And since flowers are expensive, I have a vested interest in her success. Wink While I hate to tell you you’re dead wrong (no – really!), 1600s are pretty useless at 10-k distance, and frankly I've never seen anyone, ever, even suggest them for anything much under half marathon distance, except in the most limited ways. They're useless, especially here, because she'll run them at 11:00+ pace, at best. At 400m distance, I know she can run sub-10:00 pace. My grandmother can run a 2:30 400. And she's dead. Dead Nevertheless, despite the mountain of evidence that 400s/800s are the way to train for a 10-k, I’d concede that they could help the girl that will soon be singing my praises – but only if she could do them at goal pace or better. For example, I could use them. I don’t – because they are, in fact, pretty useless, compared to 400s/800s. But since I’m barely breaking a 50:00 10k but can pretty easily run a 7:00 1600, they’d work for me, I think. If I was serious about a 10k, doing mile intervals at 7:00-7:30 would probably lower my time pretty efficiently. But the key is that I’d be doing them below my current PR pace and at or below any reasonable goal pace. Looking at Wingz’ log, I don’t think she can do it now. I think she’d run them at 11:00-12:00 pace. Which is too slow, and precisely why nobody suggests running 1600s. I’m pushing her to do 400s for a few simple reasons: she'll run them fast enough to make a difference (well, that and every running expert on the planet suggests them, too. But what do those goofy Olympians know?). I suggested 8:00-9:00 pace for a reason, too: I knew she'd argue or fudge on the intervals, and probably end up running them at 9:45 pace. Which is exactly the point. To train a little faster than or right at goal pace. I actually think she should run 800s and build up to doing them at about 4:45, but I figured 400s would be less intimidating. And more likely to happen. I also figure that she'll be resistant to good advice and run 1600s anyway some of the time; the 400s are to counter that. The bottom line is that to get faster, you have to run faster. Period. She could run 12:00 mile intervals forever and she’d never get faster. I suspect she can build up to 2:15-2:30 400s pretty quickly; and yes, I’d even bet on it. Although I’d want 3-1 odds. Wink I'm done high-jacking this thread, so if you'd like me to actually argue every time you tell me the sky is pink, start a new thread, will you? I’m sure I’ll find it eventually, and then I'll happily discuss all pink sky theories, including your other (more dangerous) misinformation I ignored earlier about running 7 days a week. That’d be swell! But, again, start a new thread for that one, too. If you'd like to follow me around and tell me I'm wrong, it's only polite to point me to a new thread for the discussion, don'tcha think? Other people might get annoyed at our bickering. Plus, we've undoubtedly perplexed poor Ktrepani. I don't even remember what her thread was about anymore. Something about running, if I remember right. If you'd like me to explain at greater length just how wrong you are and just how blue the sky is, start that thread and I'll hop on it when I can. In the meantime, a little light reading, most of the programs based on folks like Galloway and Daniels and Higdon and Fixx and Lydiard and Pfitzinger. (In fact, some of them seem partial to 200s, and Lydiard had a fetish for 100s. Strange, but worth trying at some point). Argue with them, first. Count how many suggest 400s or 800s for 10k training; now count those who suggest 1600s. In fact, since I’ve never, ever seen it, I’d really like you to point me to somebody who does recommend 1600s over 400/800s for a 5k/10k. I’m sure somebody does (as strangely as Lydiard with his 100s/200s) and it might be interesting to read. But don't hold your breath looking for many mentions of 1600s in the following (or anywhere else in Googleland, for that matter). You'll turn both pink and blue: http://www.halhigdon.com/10ktraining/10kinter.htm http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_4/138.shtml http://home.sprynet.com/~holtrun/20week.htm http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0004.htm http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,ss6-238-244--1117-2-5X8X10-4,00.html http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NHF/is_4_18/ai_86649616 http://www.sportingperformance.co.uk/10kandhalfmarathon.htm#25-30miles http://www.tidewaterstriders.com/fitfortheriverrun/advancedtraining.htm http://www.ultrunr.com/lydiard.html (Not for 10ks or beginners, but interesting) http://www.pfitzinger.com/effectiveplan.shtml (again, a little advanced, but interesting) Now quick, a test: I’m a Cowboys fan. Ah, let me guess. I’ll bet you suddenly became a Giants or Eagles fan, didn’t you? (Sadly, the ‘skins aren’t worth mentioning). I like pepperoni; did you suddenly develop a taste for anchovies? I think Sean Connery will always be the best Bond; let me guess – you’re a Roger Moore fan? Just imagine the fun we could have if I shared my views on religion, politics, beer, or women! I could turn you into a a lesbian socialist atheist who thinks Tennant’s is drinkable and who really digs hirsute German women, all by voicing the opposite opinion. The masses would be enthralled. The debates could be endless. What joy! But I’m sticking with my blue sky story. Every time I look up, it’s still blue. Why not just start a permanent thread? Title it – “My most recent disagreements with Jake.” Or maybe "Why the sky is pink." I’m sure it’ll be fascinating. --------------- Kimmer, by the way (so I can pretend the above had something do with your thread) - some of the info in the above links might help you get past your "wall." No more high-jacking. I pinky promise. Wink
              E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
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              Mile Collector


              Abs of Flabs

                While I hate to tell you you’re dead wrong (no – really!), 1600s are pretty useless at 10-k distance, and frankly I've never seen anyone, ever, even suggest them for anything much under half marathon distance, except in the most limited ways. They're useless, especially here, because she'll run them at 11:00+ pace, at best. At 400m distance, I know she can run sub-10:00 pace. My grandmother can run a 2:30 400. And she's dead. Dead
                Obviously, Jake doesn't need any help defending himself so I'm going to side with Mike (and not because I know him). I think Mike's concern with running 400s at an 8 minute pace is that Janell might hurt herself in the process. There's a big difference between 12 minute mile and 8, no matter the distance. Granted that Janell is smart enough and strong enough to say no if you ask her to do something she is physically incapable of doing, still it's not safe to create a running plan without knowing her medical history. I agree that to train for a 10 minute race pace, you need to train at or below that. I'm sure we will all agree that getting to that pace will not happen over night. It's a slow and gradual process. As such, her training should reflect that. Instead of asking her to run the 400s at 8 minute pace, perhaps she should start with 10 minute pace then push from there? Maybe I'm just a couch potato in runner's clothing, but I like to avoid injury if at all possible. I've been injured before and the recovery is not fun. I rather see Janell be healthy and slow than getting side lined after setting a new PR. That's just my $0.02. Please don't flame me. I'm not here to pick a fight!!!

                  Runners run.

                    http://www.amazon.com/Galloways-Book-Running-2-Ed/dp/0936070277 Get the book. Read the user reviews. Follow his advice. He is perfect for where you're at. If you follow his program, I *guarantee* you will be capable of a sub-1:00 10-k by Memorial Day. That's sub-10:00 miles for an hour. And able to finish a half marathon, if you want. Guaranteed. Probably sooner. And you'll have more fun, and do it more easily, and you'll be laughing at your current 30 minute barrier. http://www.amazon.com/Galloways-Book-Running-2-Ed/dp/0936070277
                    So, I bought the book, but it seems a little difficult to understand at times and I really don't get his plans at all - I don't want to run 3 times a week. Blah. I did learn something about run/walking for long runs though and about nutrition. Hopefully it'll help. Kimmer
                    My goal in life is to be as happy as I possibly can. - Me
                      Kimmer - I see from your log you tried the 15/5/15 yesterday. How'd it go?
                      It actually went EXTREMELY well - I'm really glad I did it. It was a great run. Still tired at the end tho. I'm gonna try Galloway's advice and see if I do more of a 5/1/5/1/5/1... for a long run and make it to 3.5 miles. Probably sometime this weekend. Smile Kimmer
                      My goal in life is to be as happy as I possibly can. - Me
                        I bet you can do it! If 5/1/5/15/1 seems too tough, drop it down to 4/1/4/1/4/1 (or even 3/1/3/1/3/1!) and then take it from there. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised what you can accomplish with the run/walk stuff. Smile Good luck and have FUN with it!

                        Roads were made for journeys...

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