2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 497 times)

Running Problem


Problem Child

    DK If it was me I would use the 26 miler as a supported long run. Run it at comfortable long run pace, figure out eating, and bring along solid foods. Ultras around me have chips, pretzels, rice balls, PB&J, sodas, gels, candy, and maybe some fruits. They also have a variety of sports drink available. Do the long run as a training run. Drink, and eat, like you think you want to on the ultra. I did a long training run on course for my 50 miler. I think around hour 4 I bonked hard, walked, stopped to eat a PB&J I packed, and kinda rode the stuggle bus for a while.

    I've seen a LOT of people turn a "training run" into a race and lose focus of the main goal. Typically people are in great shape that day too and just want to crush some race. I always think back to what I've been told here "what is the point of this workout/run?" If the point was to PR the marathon and do the 40 miler as a "I just want to finish and say I did it" then go for it. If your goal is to crush the 40 miler I woudn't think going for a marathon PR is a great idea a month before.....but I've done worse things.

    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

    VDOT 53.37 

    5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

      Dorothea - welcome! What's your PhD in?

       

       

       

      I am signed up for a 40-mile race, my first real ultra, on March 25th. I ran a backyard style kind of ultra (running a loop every hour, on the hour for a total of 39.8 miles) in July. It went well, but obviously the consecutive running is what will hurt the most. My question now is: I really want vindication for the marathon. Would it make sense to run a marathon in February, take it hard but keep it as part of the training for the ultra?

       

       

      Well you're young, so maybe you can bounce back quickly! I often need a month after a hard-raced marathon before I'm feeling close to myself again, and would not likely be equipped to tackle something like this in the time frame. (Of course I'm much older...plus I've never done an ultra.) Recovery is always hard to predict though, it can vary widely. If you plan to take the 40-miler super easy, and you're feeling pretty well-recovered, then it might be OK.

       

      MTA: what RP said above is certainly the better way to do it. Just not sure whether you want to go into the marathon knowing you'll just jog it.

      Dave

      Fishyone


        DK If it was me I would use the 26 miler as a supported long run. Run it at comfortable long run pace, figure out eating, and bring along solid foods.

         

        I've seen a LOT of people turn a "training run" into a race and lose focus of the main goal. Typically people are in great shape that day too and just want to crush some race.

         RP- You nailed it for me.  I've never been able to use a race as a supported training run successfully. Inevitably I speed up to the pace I'm capable of running for that distance and racing the run.  I have learned my lesson and either go into it knowing I'm going to race it or just skip it and do a workout instead.

        5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

        JMac11


        RIP Milkman

          This is what I'm having a problem accepting. The paces I was targeting were outside my abilities. I'm using a recent race (18 days old) for training, and I couldn't hit the paces the workout calls for. Why? Was race day something extra special? Is a lingering sickess to blame? How does a 6x800m compare to a 5x1M or 4x1.2k workout? they're the same distance at the same effort so how does it all play together?

           

           

          I think the conversation on VO2 max is interesting, but a 6x800 and 4x1200 workout are incredibly different, and that's why you start with 6x800. It's like saying 4x3 at MP is the same as 12 at MP. The rest component is huge. I'm curious RP how much rest you took. Given your speeds stated, you should be taking 3:30 of VERY slow jog rest (probably around 11-12 minute jog page for you).

           

          I have never gotten injured doing JD's 5K/10K work. I have during his marathons. His 5K plan I think is phenomenal. The marathon plan is very prone to injury because it's the very hard workouts WITH very high mileage. That is not true in the 5K plan.

           

          And Flavio one other mistake in some of the comparisons: the reason Keen can do 7x1200 is because he runs 100 miles per week, not because it's running his head into a wall. I would NEVER consider doing that while running 30-40 MPW. Imo it's not a matter of elite vs. non-elite: it's that elite running and high mileage is very highly correlated. JD specifically states you should never run more than 8% of your mileage per week at VO2 max, so 7x1200 only starts making sense when you are consistently running 65+ MPW, and that is just the bare minimum.

           

          He also states that V02 max should really be in the 2-4 minute range, so 1200s don't really make sense until you are sub 17:00 in a 5K.

          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

           

           

          Running Problem


          Problem Child

            JMac Interesting. VO2 max....aerobic running power/speed/focus. I never would have thought of doing a 3x4MP vs a 12 miler. In my brain they would be the same, but then I think about it and resting during the 12M seems wrong so why do the 3x4M in the first place. Odd, because Hansons does pretty much exactly that towards the end. 2x3M and two days later 10M. I've always seen them as dialing in M leading up to a race, and not as anything beyond lots of time at M.

            I'm good on rest jogging. Almost always aim for that 12 minute pace and I'm almost always glad I get to jog this slow. Heck, it's so slow I sometimes think "should I be recovering faster" then remind myself of the purpose. recovery.

             

            I think I'll start with some 400s. They're shorter and build some confidence, and Hansons likes to go light. I did 400s a few months ago, and they build the kind of confidence to make 1200s hurt again. I'm going to skip the 1,600m workouts. Too far, I don't really have a road to do them on, and by then the speed portion is done. At least with 400, 600 and 800m repeats I can build up the confidence needed to tackle 1K and 1.2km repeats (again). For some reason I always struggle with the longer speed/VO2 max workouts. I always have. Back in 2014 or 2015 I would treat a 1200 as 3 laps and mentally I'd shift gears each lap to teach myself controlling speed, and not going out too hard.

             

            page 57. paragraph 4. 3-5 minutes VO2 max. It can also be below 3 minutes. 3 minutes at a 6:00/mi pace is 800m. OOF DAH to thinking it's actually possible to do THAT pace.

            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

            VDOT 53.37 

            5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22


            Pain is my friend

              I never said you didn't need intervals! I do them from time to time. Just not during an ultra block. I do more tempos and long distance training at a set pace.

               

              Well clearly you did it wrong. As Krash has shown us we don't do intervals, we just go run b2b marathons and all will be well.

               

               

               dktrotter- Welcome. I wouldn't do a marathon any closer than 4 weeks before the 40 miler. Look at the 40 miler and try to train on similar terrain.  For a 100 miler I don't do any more than 30 miles. I once did a 50 miler 8 weeks out. Everything RP said is money. Train with what you plan to use during the race. Training is a great time to try new things. I use a lot of drink mix and Gels during ultras now to cut down on the time I am in an aid stop. Mt Dew is amazing fuel. There is a ultra forum if you need more help. They are not as active as this group.

              Ultra runners 

               

              Best of luck. You can do this.

              ATY 24   141.445 2019 1st

              Bear 100 22:08 2021 

              Jackpot 100 Feb 14:59 - 5th

              St George marathon Oct 2:58

              ATY 24 130.969 2022 2nd

               

              Pulse endurance 12 hour 76.22 1ST CR

              July Backyard ultra 22 yards Win

              Sept Bear 100 24:08

               

              JMac11


              RIP Milkman

                 

                page 57. paragraph 4. 3-5 minutes VO2 max. It can also be below 3 minutes. 3 minutes at a 6:00/mi pace is 800m. OOF DAH to thinking it's actually possible to do THAT pace.

                 

                Yep that's about right. 5 minutes at VO2 max to me is just crazy: that is for slower runners imo, someone running >20:00 for a 5K.

                 

                He does his below 3 minute intervals as "H" pace which is the same exact thing, but meant for hilly terrain, i.e. it doesn't need to be exactly the pace prescribed. You should only try to do pure intervals of set distances if you are running on a track or dead flat terrain. Otherwise, doing it over rolling hills, just focus on the right effort.

                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                 

                 

                Running Problem


                Problem Child

                   

                  Yep that's about right. 5 minutes at VO2 max to me is just crazy: that is for slower runners imo, someone running >20:00 for a 5K.

                   

                  He does his below 3 minute intervals as "H" pace which is the same exact thing, but meant for hilly terrain, i.e. it doesn't need to be exactly the pace prescribed. You should only try to do pure intervals of set distances if you are running on a track or dead flat terrain. Otherwise, doing it over rolling hills, just focus on the right effort.

                   

                  since when is 21 minutes for a 5k "slow"? Shit....this place IS rough. The things I don't know people say about us MUST be true.

                   

                  I don't do tracks. I do roads and GPS markings. You should know this about me. Tracks can be inaccurate, and my training focuses on consistent inaccuracy of GPS so I'm prepared on race day. Even with Garmin's ability to store like 10 tracks in my watch and account for short/long tracks. I also don't have access/time for TRACK workouts. I'm not keen pulling some bullshit 4am workout on a track, the one by my work is dirt and school is usually in session, and it's always been easier for me to use GPS for workouts.  So my "set distances" are GPS measured 400m. I call it "crosswalk to rock. I think my 1,200s were "35 to 45" because of markings on the road and some guy's address on his mailbox. Real scientific and precise out West. I've always just run the pure interval of set distance with the GPS telling me when to start and when to stop. It's usually been consistent enough for me to hit the same start/end points. Plus at my level a second or two slower/faster is more likely due to trying harder/burning out than inaccurate markings. I HAVE thought about going out with a measuring wheel to mark things off, but ain't no one got time for defacing public property.

                   

                  I can feel rlk scoffing at my non-track based workouts. Thankfully it provides me the advantage of not having some dipshit walker in lane one working on their fitness and form just like me. Race like I train I guess. 

                  Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                  VDOT 53.37 

                  5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                  darkwave


                  Mother of Cats

                    "Tracks can be inaccurate"

                     

                    Bwah?  How so?  Granted, tracks can be something other than 400m (we have a few 320m tracks around here - so 5 laps = 1600m) but the whole point of the track is accuracy.

                     

                    RP - I keep wondering if part of the reason that your interval workouts don't seem to match your race performances is that you are doing them on marked roads or by GPS.  Your 1200s could indeed be longer than 1200m.

                     

                    Which, to others' point, is a great reason to just run by effort and time.

                    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                     

                    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    dktrotter


                    Dorothea

                       RP, some more great advice. Also, I went back a bit further in the spreading saw you had already answered about the plan switch. Again, makes sense.

                       

                      DK If it was me I would use the 26 miler as a supported long run. ...

                      I've seen a LOT of people turn a "training run" into a race and lose focus of the main goal. Typically people are in great shape that day too and just want to crush some race. I always think back to what I've been told here "what is the point of this workout/run?" If the point was to PR the marathon and do the 40 miler as a "I just want to finish and say I did it" then go for it. If your goal is to crush the 40 miler I woudn't think going for a marathon PR is a great idea a month before.....but I've done worse things.

                       

                      Good distinction. I think that's what I'm looking at right now. It is the first time attempting 40 in one go... and honestly I'm not even sure if right now is the best year for it. I don't need to win it... just finishing (healthy) is fine. But If I could PR the marathon and still run a 40-miler 5 weeks later, that's what I wasn't sure about.

                       

                      That's where Dave's point comes in (and thanks for the welcome!). I do tend to recover fairly quickly (did the Berlin Marathon in 2019 and PRed in a half three weeks after that, and four weeks later PRed in the full--that's the PR that still stands). But I obviously that was placed a bit further apart and 40 miles is a lot further than a marathon...

                      btw, my PhD is not in anything running related. Just comparative literature... I work primarily with contemporary transnational literature. Do lots of my thinking on the run, though.

                       

                      Fishyone, ditto. I haven't had success running races as training runs. If I sign up for a race, I try to go as fast as possible for that distance.

                       

                      Thanks also  for the welcome and advice, Krash. I joined the group! You're right, a bit quiet, but maybe things will pick up. 

                      Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

                      Last race: Community 5K, March 2nd. Speed test run with 2 walk breaks. Went pretty well.  

                      dktrotter


                      Dorothea

                        "Tracks can be inaccurate"

                         

                        Bwah?  How so?  Granted, tracks can be something other than 400m (we have a few 320m tracks around here - so 5 laps = 1600m) but the whole point of the track is accuracy.

                         

                         

                        darkwave, I thought the same thing at first, but I think RP meant the GPS recording on the track. As in, the GPS calls out 400 meters but you're still at 350 with 50m left to go. At the same time, RP, you say that you like to train with the consistent inaccuracy of the GPS on the road, but let me warn you to have a pacing strategy in the race for when your watch is calling out a mile but the course mile marker is still 200 meters ahead of you. That really messed me up on Sunday- not the first time, but maybe the 19th-26th time. And I also don't know if you can know if you're hitting the paces if the watch is inaccurate. Old school timing on a track is much more reliable and a better way to know if you're hitting your marks. You can set up workouts to go by manual laps instead of automatic... This way you at least know what your times are when you can look at your stats at home.

                        Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

                        Last race: Community 5K, March 2nd. Speed test run with 2 walk breaks. Went pretty well.  

                          My marathon pacing strategy is usually to assume the race will be 26.4 miles on my watch, and set my goal pace based on that. 

                          When I do a track workout, I almost always just use manual lap. I prefer workouts where both reps and recoveries are some multiple of 200m, rather than anything time-based.

                          Dave

                          dktrotter


                          Dorothea

                            My marathon pacing strategy is usually to assume the race will be 26.4 miles on my watch, and set my goal pace based on that. 

                            When I do a track workout, I almost always just use manual lap. I prefer workouts where both reps and recoveries are some multiple of 200m, rather than anything time-based.

                             

                            That's a good idea, Dave. That may be something I try for next time.

                            Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

                            Last race: Community 5K, March 2nd. Speed test run with 2 walk breaks. Went pretty well.  

                            SteveChCh


                            Hot Weather Complainer

                              I had my first session with my new coach today, and it's pretty exciting to see what is ahead.  Once my new heart rate monitor finally arrives we'll get really good data about my zones, and he explained how heart rate variability is a great stat which will show him when I'm getting close to hitting a wall but before I actually feel it.  I had a period about 8 weeks out from Melbourne where I was just exhausted for a week.

                               

                              He wants my "long" runs to be shorter than previously, until we get to the targeted marathon phase, probably 12 weeks out, and we'll focus more on speed and strength until then.  He wants me to run a hard 5km as soon as I get my HRM so we can get a baseline - he actually said it will be better if I'm gassed at 3.5km and struggle home to get the best data.  That won't be fun.  I'll probably do that at a Park Run on the last day of the year.  We're also planning some 'B' races, probably the Motorway Half in late February, then the City to Surf 4 weeks out - this is just a 12km fun run but has a very strong field.

                               

                              He had a look at what my data showed on the day of the marathon and the few weeks prior, noting that it was based off my heart rate data from the watch which isn't great.  The "Form" value in Training Peaks was too high on race day meaning I was either very well rested or I did way too much 3-5 weeks before the race.  I think we know it's the latter.

                               

                              Overall I'm feeling really positive about the change and the potential for improvement.  As I noted on the other thread, he gave me a heads up that the course for Christchurch is having a major change because of the cost of traffic management - the marathon will now be 4 laps on city streets and nice paths in Hagley Park.  It's probably better than the previous 2 laps around the river which isn't the same after all those neighbourhoods were destroyed by the earthquake.  Also can get quite windy as you head towards the sea with long straights so even though it's 4 laps, I'm pretty happy with it.  It will make life easier for my race crew too.

                              5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

                               

                              2024 Races:

                              Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                              Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

                              Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

                              Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                              zebano


                                Steve  That's really awesome that your coach is using HRV. I wasn't sure of the adoption rate of that particular stat. There was a lot of chatter about it a few years ago but little adoption that I saw. I personally use RHR for a similar heads up and it tends to work well though I've found different watches measure it differently so you have to compare apples to apples. My old Suunto actually just recorded my minimum sleeping heartrate that  I hit for more than a couple minutes which was 38-40 but my Coros ignores sleep data and only calculates it while awake which puts it more in the 48-51 range and I know somethings up if it's 51+ (whether or not I act on that is a different  story).

                                1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)