2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 497 times)

Running Problem


Problem Child

    Here's an embarrassing issue:

     

    I tend to get a bit anxious before 18-20 mile long runs. I think it might be because I really haven't done that many in total. Has anyone else ever felt like this lol?

     

     

    I really try to avoid anything more than 16 miles just because of the amount of time it takes.  16 is about 2.5 hours for me.  20 is 3 just running which becomes 4 REAL quick and ‘ain’t nobody got time fo DAT’ his home REAL fast.  I don’t get nervous before them. I get worn out before I start.

    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

    VDOT 53.37 

    5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22


    Resident Historian

      Yep that's right. I always think of mileage like this for the marathon (using the 15 MPW band that JD and Pfitz both seem to use)

       

      40 MPW: I want to finish the race with minimal walking

      55 MPW: I want to run a marathon for time

      70 MPW: I want to run a very good time (e.g. a BQ) (for me, whatever my standard is)

      85 MPW: I want to run near my potential

      100+: I want to run my genetic potential

       

      Of course, some people do worse if they get too high in mileage, especially those that go too fast, too soon. These arent exact and I'm sure someone could quibble, but I've found for most people, this is about right. And as I've said before, I'll take someone running 70 MPW with a bunch of 16-18 efforts at medium or hard effort over the person running 55 MPW who is running 20 miles every single weekend.

       

       

      I agree with this except for the BQ reference as noted above. A "very good time" can be anywhere from BQ plus1 hour to minus 1 hour.

       

      On the old RWOL, we had several long discussion on what "equally trained" for a marathon meant when using equivalent times over other distances (10k-Half) to set a marathon goal. The consensus was that to use the Daniels' tables, 70 mpw was appropriate (average over 10+ weeks. Some other tables (e.g. McMillan) perhaps 60 mpw would give a reasonable point to consider.

       

      I'm one that could not handle over 70mpw, and to hit 70 the miles had to be well distributed over the week, not just in long and medium long runs.  So I totally agree with JMac that overall mileage and a bunch or 16-18 milers is preferable to less mile but a 20 every week

      Neil

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I'm here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. - Hunter S. Thompson

      SteveChCh


      Hot Weather Complainer

        That's an interesting guide JMac, and I think is probably reasonably accurate for most people.  I think mmerkle and Calbears can achieve more on the lower numbers because of talent but for someone like me, I'd need to hit those numbers to achieve those things.  It's probably not the right time to plan out my next marathon with 7 days until my first, but I am considering what 70+ miles would look like for me and how easily I'd be able to step up to that.  I peaked at 67.5 in this cycle so it's not a huge jump, but obviously my average was lower than that so it's not an insignificant increase to average 70.

         

        I feel the same way as darkwave when I have a 3 hour run in front of me - "I have a lot of work to do".  I try to remind myself that for the majority of the run I'll feel great and any fatigue or suffering will be short lived towards the end.

        5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

         

        2024 Races:

        Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

        Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

        Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

        Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

          mmerkle - I don’t stress about long runs. I just look at them as part of the job for marathon training. But I’ve done a lot of them over a number of years; I saw them as a bigger deal early in my running career. (MTA: RA tells me I’ve run 38 20+ milers over 10 years, excluding 16 marathons.) Do you ever run with a partner or group? LRs are much nicer that way; the miles fly by, and you have less time in your own head.

           

          40 MPW: I want to finish the race with minimal walking

          55 MPW: I want to run a marathon for time

          70 MPW: I want to run a very good time (e.g. a BQ)

          85 MPW: I want to run near my potential

          100+: I want to run my genetic potential

           

          This seems pretty reasonable to me. But the one hard and fast rule about marathon training is that there is no hard and fast rule. “Experiment of one,” as they say. I gradually ramped up to 70+ over a few years after I started, and only then did I start running BQ-type times. I thought I would continue increasing, but ultimately decided 70s were all I wanted to do. I’ve generally felt that you need to be in the 50-70 range for “serious” marathoning, but obviously some people do it on less.

          Dave

             

            These numbers seem very high to me.

            I got a BQ off 40mpw and I'd class myself as fatter than ideal for running and I do no other cross training,do you really think you need 70m/w to get a BQ?

            Interested to see what others ran to get a BQ and their age as I got mine at 48,so might be easier with less miles when older.

             

            Not for me. My first BQ was at age 51, with 70+ mpw. (BQ that actually made the cutoff was 1 year later.) I am probably also fatter than ideal for distance running (but super-skinny by regular-American standards!), and do no cross-training. IDK how old you are now, but you are clearly way faster than me; not sure if that is the “talent” factor or what.

            Dave

            Ian5


               

              Not for me. My first BQ was at age 51, with 70+ mpw. (BQ that actually made the cutoff was 1 year later.) I am probably also fatter than ideal for distance running (but super-skinny by regular-American standards!), and do no cross-training. IDK how old you are now, but you are clearly way faster than me; not sure if that is the “talent” factor or what.

              Dave-I woyldn't say I'm way faster than you,you're aiming for sub 3:20,I got 3:10 2 weeks ago.

              I got my first BQ time in 2019 when I'd have been 47,may have hit it the year before but I wasn't looking in to it then and BQ's in the UK isn't really talked about much.

              I'm now 50 so have another 5 mins to play with.

              5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

              mmerkle


                JMac: Interesting breakdown. Some are saying it's high but I recall reading that a bunch of Strava data revealed that sub 3 people averaged roughly 65 MPW during training or something like that. Obviously talented people don't need the same mileage but you're going for like a rule of thumb.

                 

                Steve: Me? Talented? Thanks for the compliment, I never saw it that way.

                 

                RunningProblem: I do recall someone on here saying they hate going more than 16 but I forgot it was you. Two and a half hours is a big run, I haven't done a training run longer than 2.5, ever. Not sure I plan on it either.

                 

                Dave: I am a pure solo runner. Can't remember the last time I trained with another soul. It's been years and years. I'm somewhat open to it, but it seems you need someone with your exact ability no? Also, I'm a crazy person who doesn't mind being in their own head. Got lots of company in there LOL.

                 

                Me: Just did an 18 miler, speaking of. Kinda kicked my ass but not horribly. Just had some nausea towards the end and the last mile sucked. Currently experiencing some spasms in my calves. I feel like I'm good up to about 14 or 15 miles, and then I start not feeling so well.

                SteveChCh


                Hot Weather Complainer

                  My week was good - enjoying the shorter runs, and the feeling of fresher legs.  I'd almost forgotten how that feels.  No real taper madness yet (unless you count looking at weather forecasts more than 7 days out), although the first week of the taper I felt pretty low on energy.

                   

                  The forecast has some relevance now it's 7 days to go, although things can change in Melbourne very quickly.  Crowded House wrote a song about it - Four Seasons in one day.  Currently it looks good with cool and calm conditions - that's been the consistent forecast for a week now.  Highs below 20C (68F) are forecast all week which is a good sign - with the race starting at 7am (although essentially 6am due to daylight saving starting that day) means it could be as cool as 10C (50F) at the start.

                   

                  Weekly for period: From: 19/09/2022 To 25/09/2022

                  Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                  in m
                  19/09 Warm up 0.34 0.54 00:03:17 09:39 06:05 0
                  19/09 Easy pace 6.29 10.11 00:51:16 08:09 05:04 17
                  19/09 Strides 0.49 0.79 00:04:04 08:18 05:09 0
                  21/09 Warm up 0.32 0.51 00:03:02 09:29 05:57 0
                  21/09 6 x 1km @ 4:30/km with 1 minute recoveries 8.75 14.08 01:07:48 07:45 04:49 8
                  22/09 Recovery 5.52 8.89 00:48:42 08:49 05:29 11
                  23/09 Warm up 0.34 0.54 00:03:14 09:31 05:59 0
                  23/09 Easy pace 5.03 8.09 00:41:00 08:09 05:04 9
                  23/09 Strides 0.50 0.80 00:03:56 07:52 04:55 0
                  24/09 Warm up 0.34 0.55 00:03:19 09:45 06:02 0
                  24/09 6km @ MP 10.03 16.15 01:18:43 07:51 04:52 16
                  25/09 Recovery 3.76 6.05 00:33:46 08:59 05:35 7

                  Total distance: 67.10km

                  5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

                   

                  2024 Races:

                  Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                  Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

                  Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

                  Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                  darkwave


                  Mother of Cats

                    DW/JMac: Tell me if I'm close. It seems like the philosophy you two share regarding marathon training is roughly that the 2 most important aspects are 1. Running long hard efforts, focusing on effort rather than pace. 2. Consistently keeping a high-ish weekly mileage, which is different for everyone, but for me now I'd guess 50 minimum, but ideally in the 60s for 4-6 weeks or more?

                     

                     

                    Yes, I would agree with that, with the caveat of not too hard/too long.    You don't want to leave your best race out there in training.

                     

                    Essentially, I think most people get too mathematical about running.  They look at all of these pace charts and stuff, which tell you what splits you should be running if you have run X for a given distance.  And then they a) take the splits as gospel (not always) and essential and b) try to reverse engineer a race performance by instead picking their goal time Y and then trying to hit or beat the training paces associated with time Y.

                     

                    I like to think of running training as more organic and less mathematical.  Essentially, I apply a stress to my body with a workout (just enough, not too much) and then I recover and let my body respond.  Then I apply another stress, and repeat.   The absolute numbers don't matter - the interplay of stress and recovery is essential.

                     

                    The specific types of stresses vary on the race I'm targeting.  For a marathon, I'll want my biggest workouts (i.e. stresses) to be decently long periods of time running at marathon effort.  Not so long as to dig a hole that I can't emerge from, but long enough to stress my body and force it to adapt.  My second most important workouts are running for a long period of time (with a bit of marathon effort work included there in some way) and running at a bit harder than marathon effort.

                     

                    Weekly mileage is another tool - I see its primary benefits as developing durability and comfort with doing a lot of running, and the secondary benefit as creating a residual amount of fatigue that makes a marathon effort workout more specific.   That's why, when I marathon train, I like to have a high mileage day the day BEFORE my biggest workouts, so that I am doing those workouts on tired legs.  When marathon training, I'd rather have a slower workout on tired legs than a faster workout on fresh legs.  But of course, I have to balance that preference with the very important requirement that I not dig a hole I can't emerge from during taper.

                     

                    Rambling thoughts finis.

                    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                     

                    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                       

                       

                      40 MPW: I want to finish the race with minimal walking

                      55 MPW: I want to run a marathon for time

                      70 MPW: I want to run a very good time (e.g. a BQ)

                      85 MPW: I want to run near my potential

                      100+: I want to run my genetic potential

                       

                      One thought - I'd argue that to be able to handle 85 or 100 MPW of running is in itself a talent and makes one a genetic outlier.  For some, 60 MPW might get them to their full potential, since one indication of the limits of their potential is that they can't handle more mileage than that.

                       

                      I'll also note that I hit 90-100 MPW when I was still a fairly new runner, and trying to improve aggressively.    I've run much faster on 50-70 MPW spread over 4-5 days of running plus cross training than I ever did when running higher mileage over 7 days a week.  This is likely a reflection of my own limitations, and how I've worked around them.

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                      mmerkle


                        Darkwave: Thanks for the thoughts. I haven't tried high mileage the day before a LR before. I might give it a try sometime. I like the idea of two hard efforts per week, 1 speedy track sesh and 1 LR with some speed thrown in. Which is why I put a lot of stock in the LRs so to speak.

                         

                        I've been actively working on going more by feel and effort and less by the numbers. It's taking a lot of effort, because I am the type of person that likes numbers, data, etc. It comes off as me being stubborn but I promise that's not it. Just trying to check the watch less and listen to the body more. Been learning a lot from y'all.

                        JMac11


                        RIP Milkman

                          I think you guys who say these numbers are too high for yourself are missing the point. I used BQ as an example. That doesn't mean a BQ is the definition of a good time. My point is that for most runners, to run a "good" marathon, I think 70 MPW is the number. It will get you maybe 90 percent of the way there. I also would point out this group is self-selecting. Go back to the old RWOL and see how many people in much slower groups ran 55 MPW and weren't even close to their BQs. On the other hand, ask a professional how many miles a week they would run to hit a BQ. I bet a majority could do it on 25 MPW

                           

                          Also not all BQs are equal. It is much easier to qualify when you are older, based on AG rules.

                           

                          Darkwave on your point with mileage - yes there's a link that genetic potential may limit your mileage. I was pointing this out more as a given, ie if you CAN run those miles, vast majority of people need to run 100+ to hit their potential. Otherwise, professionals would be running 90 MPW.

                          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                           

                           

                          Marky_Mark_17


                            I like to think of running training as more organic and less mathematical.  Essentially, I apply a stress to my body with a workout (just enough, not too much) and then I recover and let my body respond.  Then I apply another stress, and repeat.   The absolute numbers don't matter - the interplay of stress and recovery is essential.

                             

                             

                            100% agree with this.  Running a 100km week doesn't magically make you a better runner than if you ran a 95km week.  The question is what you did with that mileage.  I know how my body feels when I nail the balance that you describe (unfortunately, sometimes I've been a little too slow to notice when it doesn't feel like that!).

                            3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                            10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                            * Net downhill course

                            Last race: Maraetai HM, 10 Mar, DNF

                            Up next: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr

                            "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                            Fishyone


                              Darkwave: Thanks for the thoughts. I haven't tried high mileage the day before a LR before. I might give it a try sometime. I like the idea of two hard efforts per week, 1 speedy track sesh and 1 LR with some speed thrown in. Which is why I put a lot of stock in the LRs so to speak.

                               

                              I've been actively working on going more by feel and effort and less by the numbers. It's taking a lot of effort, because I am the type of person that likes numbers, data, etc. It comes off as me being stubborn but I promise that's not it. Just trying to check the watch less and listen to the body more. Been learning a lot from y'all.

                               

                               MMerkle- I'm a lot older and slower than you but my 2 cents on this is that the high mileage the day before the long run naturally slows you down so you're not thinking about giving it any more effort just putting in the time on your feet.  Most of my long runs are done at 1+ minutes per mile slower than MP and if I don't feel it that day I just plug away and don't put any fast miles into the day.  I think you would benefit from a couple of slow steady 3 hour runs (even at a slow pace for you that would be over 20).  They train your mind to accept the fact that on race day you will be running for 3 hours (hopefully less). I'm never anxious on long run days but like DW said I'm prepared for 3 hours of work that needs to be done.  If you can find a good audible book or podcast it will pass the time.

                              5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                              Fishyone


                                 

                                100% agree with this.  Running a 100km week doesn't magically make you a better runner than if you ran a 95km week.  The question is what you did with that mileage.  I know how my body feels when I nail the balance that you describe (unfortunately, sometimes I've been a little too slow to notice when it doesn't feel like that!).

                                 

                                I agree a weekly 5K difference is not significant however the difference between consistent 50MPW and 70MPW is major...especially in the beginning stages of marathon training.  Once your body is used to high mileage adding a few miles really doesn't make that much of a difference.

                                5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015)