If you could put up to 3 Bumper Stickers on your Car, what would they be? (Read 405 times)


Dad of a real runner

    Good points-- you are a gentleman and a scholar.  Let me respond:

     

    1. Let's take a consequentialist argument.  If gay "marriage" is accepted by society and sanctioned by the state, -------

     

    2.  An even better approach is the natural law argument-- the idea that there is a Creator and that we can understand his intent and find the right answer (yes, there actually is a right answer) through observation and the use of reason. 

     

    There are so many fallacies in the logic (or lack thereof) utilized here that my limited brain hurts to even contemplate a learned response.

     

    One that I will address is the argument you make regarding the large prison population that did not have a father.  So, does that mean that a child raised in a household with two fathers would be twice as likely to not go to prison?  See what I mean – faulty logic.

     

    Would you feel any better if the phrase “civil union” was used instead of marriage?  That would eliminate the religious aspect of the argument.

      1. Let's take a consequentialist argument.  If gay "marriage" is accepted by society and sanctioned by the state, then we will have even more children than we do now being raised without a mother or a father, whether as a result of (1) gay couples adopting them or (2) straight couples no longer understanding the purpose of marriage, as it had been traditionally understood.  Given that most of our social ills today can be traced to the breakdown of the family (e.g., studies have shown that a large percentage of prison inmates did not have a father), this is a bad consequence.

       

      Unfortunately your premise is contradicted by facts. In my state, where same sex marriage has been accepted and legal for 12 years, none of the breakdown of the traditional family doomsday scenarios have played out. Traditional marriage and traditional families have not been affected.

       

      Our divorce rate is about the same as before gay marriage--the lowest in the country. Our out-of-wedlock birth rate is one of the lowest in the country (and has gone down contrary to the national trend.) Our birth rate to mothers under 20 (highly correlates to poverty and a host of negative outcomes) is the lowest in the country by a good margin.

      Runners run.

        Some things I have been thinking about:

         

        1) Making an argument is different from making a compelling argument.

         

        2) That no one responds to an argument is no proof of the effectiveness of an argument.

         

        3) Even if argument has no compelling or convincing counterargument (that has yet been imagined), it can still be wrong: for example, it might be framed poorly or may disregard data.

         

        4) Most internet arguments beg the question: i.e., they begin from questionable premises and operate only within the bounds of those premises.

         

        Those are pretty long bumper stickers

         I like running alone.

        GoodSirMurdoc


          This is an internet forum and people are actually discussing what kinds of bumper stickers they *might* put on their cars. Boy, this forum really needs a revival. Someone post hardcore porn.

            I think I'll stick to the name-calling. It's fun.

             

            You're not invited to my gay wedding.

             

            Planning a visit to us out here in Washington state?  I think the lines for a marriage license aren't so long now.

              Planning a visit to us out here in Washington state?  I think the lines for a marriage license aren't so long now.

               

              I'd love to! Hm, first I need to find someone to marry me... Plus, I live in Minnesota, so in a couple of short weeks, it'll be legal here, too. Wahoo!

               

              Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

                So far, my "straight" "marriage" hasn't disintegrated, but since it's no longer being defended, who knows?

                Well at least someone here is making relevance to the subject.


                A Saucy Wench

                  Good points-- you are a gentleman and a scholar.  Let me respond:

                   

                  1. Let's take a consequentialist argument.  If gay "marriage" is accepted by society and sanctioned by the state, then we will have even more children than we do now being raised without a mother or a father, whether as a result of (1) gay couples adopting them or (2) straight couples no longer understanding the purpose of marriage, as it had been traditionally understood.  Given that most of our social ills today can be traced to the breakdown of the family (e.g., studies have shown that a large percentage of prison inmates did not have a father), this is a bad consequence.

                   

                  OK, fine.  you can drag me in to this stuff.

                   

                  a) Your first assumption on "the purpose of marriage as it had been traditionally understood".  is the first problem.  You talk about "redefining" marriage and then bring up a definition of marriage that has NEVER been the definition as I believed/understood it at any point in my lifetime.  So the "definition" you work from was "redefined" at least 40 years ago for at least some of the population.   And I dont feel in the LEAST befuddled about what the definition of MY marriage is by the overturning of DOMA or by my friendships with gay couple TYVM.

                   

                  b)Family break down has already clearly occurred by your definition, so it seems a bit premature to blame it on a group that has barely dented the family makeup in this country yet.

                   

                  c) extremely faulty logic on the prison/lack of father/ gay marriage connection.  Given the high correlation also with prison inmates and poverty and the EXPENSE of producing/adopting a child in a same sex union, and the near lack of unplanned children (hey even gay people have straight affairs, does nobody watch Grey's?)  I'm guessing in a few decades once the population is statistically significant some yahoo is going to be on some internet forum somewhere stating that the low percentage of children of same sex unions being in prison "proves" they make better parents.

                   

                  (and if I had to pick which boy in my kids school is going to end up in prison...well, it isnt either of the boys being raised by same sex parents.  Or the ones being raised by single parents for that matter)

                  I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                   

                  "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7


                  I'm back!

                    I'm guessing in a few decades once the population is statistically significant some yahoo is going to be on some internet forum somewhere stating that the low percentage of children of same sex unions being in prison "proves" they make better parents.

                     

                    World’s largest study on gay parents finds the kids are more than all right


                    Needs more cowbell!

                      I'd be FAR more concerned about the effects of reproduction on the sanctity of marriage than I would on the effects of same-sex couples wedding...

                      Kirsten - aka "Auntie Kirsten"

                      '14 Goals:

                      • 2 olympic distance duathlons -- 6 days apart -- PR at least 1

                      • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)


                      I'm back!

                        Oh, you mean this study?

                         

                        The study was later declared to be flawed in an audit conducted by the publisher of the study, Social Science Research,[9] and was criticized by major professional scientific institutions and associations as well as other sociologists at the University of Texas.[10] The American Sociological Association formally condemned the NFSS for being invalid in a brief to the United States Supreme Court.

                        ...

                        In 2013, Darren Sherkat, professor of sociology at Southern Illinois University and a member of the editorial board of Social Science Research was asked by the journal's editor to audit the peer-review process that led to publication of the Regnerus study, for which Regnerus received $700,000 from the Witherspoon Institute and $60,000 from another conservative think tank. Sherkat found "a study that is deeply methodologically flawed and a peer-review process that failed to identify significant problems."[18] Sherkat also found that the study was riddled with technical flaws:[18]

                         

                         

                        Now here's something weird. I went to high school with that Darren Sherkat.


                        Needs more cowbell!

                          Oh, you mean this study?

                           

                          Shades of Andrew Wakefield....  It's crazy to me how many people will STILL regurgitate outright lies for years after these "scientists" are outed as utter frauds.

                          Kirsten - aka "Auntie Kirsten"

                          '14 Goals:

                          • 2 olympic distance duathlons -- 6 days apart -- PR at least 1

                          • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)


                          12-week layoff

                            Oh my goodness!  I'm straight, so when gay marriage becomes legal in my state, I will become so confused that I won't understand how to be married to a man?  What about my daughter?  She might be straight!  How are kids today going to know how to have relationships with people of the opposite sex?  Because gay people have not been around for very long at all.

                             

                            And this. 

                              As far as gay marriage is concerned, that might be the highest level of "evolution" in our society.  I think there are enough people on the earth now.

                               

                              Besides that, all that matters is for a child to be loved and taken care of by their parents.  It doesn't matter if there are two men, two women, or one man and one women.   Two parents are better than one.