2022 Advanced Racing Thread (Read 467 times)

JMac11


RIP Milkman

    Steve - your goal time is now in the top 3 for most talked about topics on this thread. Anyway I've said enough times I think it's 3:15 especially since it's your first real one, not 3:10. Anyway nothing else to add from previous discussions.

     

    Also darkwave is spot on with her advice: I have run almost every single half marathon PR by training for a pace that is a good 1-2 minutes slower in total time. Hasn't mattered at all. Same is true with marathon, as MP is more of a mindset training run of how to go long distances at hard efforts without stopping. It's not about the exact pace. So I wouldn't worry about that.

     

    Finally, you are insane for checking 14 day forecasts. You are a weather company's marketing dream. Shut it down until 5-7 days out when they actually mean something.

     

    Flavio - wow that is scary with your wife. Did she yell at you for your pacing duties? That sounds like terrible half marathon weather and I'm not sure I would even race in it too be honest. 5K is probably the longest I'd race in those conditions. Also good luck on your 10K.

     

    Darkwave - your personal worst in a half is 1:34??? Is that the best PW on this thread? Has to be.

     

    Dave/Mmerkle - the concept of a "dead zone" was generally in relation to easy running. We actually all generally agreed with the concept, it was just that the pace range provided made no sense. I specifically remember 2:40 runners doing 7:40 easy runs as a dead zone. In no way is that the case. I'd say DZ running is MP+10%. Very good for long runs, especially near the end. Not good if that's what your easy runs look like.

    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

     

     

    SteveChCh


    Hot Weather Complainer

      JMac - Trust me, I wish it wasn't!  I'm just using 4:40/km as a guide, and a sensible pace for at least the first half.  Then we'll see what happens.  Let's never mention it again.

       

      My first half was 1:34 but I had a couple of shockers when I was battling through injury with no idea how to sort out a proper training programme that might allow bigger mileage and fewer injuries...I'd love to go back and talk to myself about it but it's all part of the journey I guess.

       

      The Australian Bureau of Meteorology app only has 7 days forecasts, so I'll ramp up that obsessing in a few days.  I know I'm insane by the way...this is what happens when you plan a marathon and then don't run it for 2 years even though injury isn't an issue.

      Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

      Recent Races:   Melbourne Marathon 3:35:03 October 2, 2022, Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

      Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023, New York Marathon 2024

      flavio1980


      Intl. correspondent

        Steve - LOL yeah I was a crappy pacer, way too fast the first 7k! Honestly the guilt from the thought I caused it was the worst.

        Also - you probably should stick to what you can control, the weather is not one of those. Maybe obsess over the right shade of blue to wear on race day? 😂

         

        DW - a personal worst of 1h34 in 86F weather, thats mighty impressive. You are in great shape and the marathon agrees with your body, it's a good sign.

         

        Mikkey - thanks for keeping the thread entertaining

        PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

        Up next: 10K Family race

        Tool to generate Strava weekly

        cinnamon girl


          Merkle - nice 10k win and workout!

          Ian - that's great your recovery from Antwerp is going well.

          Dave - I love that long run! Within 45 sec of GMP is solid. Especially for 22 mi/3:01 with 800ft gain. Strong work!

           

          M: rest + hot tub
          T: 13 mi (8:08), 1 mi moderate (7:08), 2 mi fast finish (6:31, 6:21), ½ mi c/d 
          W: 5 mi (9:03)
          T: 8 mi (8:18)
          F: 30 min comfortable tempo (6:33)
          S: 7 mi (8:15)
          S: 7 mi (8:08)

          2022

          Mar: Oakland Half 1:28:59

          Aug: Lake Merced Half 1:28:14

          Oct: Rogue Half 1:27:14

           

           

           

          flavio1980


          Intl. correspondent

            Also Steve: Don't feed the trolls 😂

            If they're right but you stick to your plan, you will feel amazing the last 5km and pass hundreds of people, and you will be wanting to run another marathon.

            If they're wrong and you give up your plan and follow theirs, you will feel utterly destroyed the last 10km, hating on life and feel like kicking light posts. You will be bitter for weeks afterwards.

            PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

            Up next: 10K Family race

            Tool to generate Strava weekly

            darkwave


            Mother of Cats

              DavePNW - FWIW, I think that long run was fine.   Like Jmac said - it's really when you start running your easy runs at that effort (and calling them "easy") that you get into trouble.

               

              Put another way - running in the dead zone on a scheduled hard day isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Running in the dead zone on a scheduled easy day is.

               

              MMerkle - I've run at Burke Lake, though not in 6 or 7 years.  My memory of it then was that some sections were reasonably fast, and some required navigation of tree roots, and weaving around trees.    I would consider racing there to be an easy trail race, and thus slower than the roads.

               

              Cal - fwiw, I think that was a beast of a week.

               

              Flavio  - thanks for the nice words - it wasn't THAT hot though - certainly nothing like what you and your wife ran in.  It was 76 degrees F (so 24 C) with a dew point of 65 by the time I finished.  So not optimal, but not brutal.

               

              Cinnamon- nice week!

               

              Rovatti - good to see you pop up.  I was sad to miss 5th Avenue Mile last weekend.

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

               

              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              JMac11


              RIP Milkman

                Darkwave - just had time to read your race report. Also I realized we don't have you on the front page given you weren't sure you were running. Given the temperatures and full sunshine, after doing some mathematical gymnastics with my TDP/VDOT calculator, I am putting you down for 3:09:59 for your A goal, assuming you get a great weather day in Chicago. How does that sound?

                 

                Also, 140 TDP for a half is brutal in my opinion. 130 I consider hot, and 120 would be "not ideal". Probably bump those down by about 10 degrees for a marathon, and up by 10 for a 5K.

                 

                Cinnamon - I've noticed a theme - you're either in the Pacific or in a hot tub every day 

                 

                Flavio/Steve - definitely thinking going out at 3:09 pace would make Steve hate life by 35K.

                 

                 

                Didn't drop off my week last night as I wanted to respond to others and didn't have time. This was a highest mileage ever for me. I plan to hold around this level until the taper (minus my half week). Started to run doubles as I can't get any more with singles. My Wednesday run was meant to be one run, but I had to split it up into AM/PM due to bathroom issues as we spoke about. My MP run was good on Saturday.

                 

                On one hand, I feel like I'm finally starting to get into marathon shape. On the other, my times are a good 5-10 seconds slower than they should be (even weather adjusted) than they should be at this point comparing to past cycles. Most likely my goal for NYC given the difficulty of the course and the numbers I'm spitting out in my training will be 2:39:59, but I'll finalize something after I see what I run in the half in 2 weeks. Maybe I'll make a miraculous jump in fitness in these last few weeks. It's not out of the cards.

                 

                 

                Weekly for period: From: 09/12/2022 To 09/18/2022

                Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                in ft
                09/12 Evening Run 11.20 18.02 01:33:37 08:22 05:12 177
                09/13 Morning Run 10.68 17.18 01:24:10 07:53 04:54 184
                09/14 2E + 4T (5:52) + 2.5E 8.78 14.13 01:04:41 07:22 04:35 315
                09/14 2E + 4T (5:57) + 4.5E 10.66 17.15 01:16:49 07:12 04:29 171
                09/15 Lunch Run 6.91 11.12 00:57:54 08:23 05:12 66
                09/15 Evening Run 5.05 8.12 00:43:22 08:35 05:20 79
                09/16 Evening Run 11.92 19.18 01:36:25 08:05 05:02 404
                09/17 2E + 14M (6:07) + 3E 18.81 30.26 02:05:20 06:40 04:09 751
                09/18 First time in the 90s 7.10 11.42 00:59:49 08:25 05:14 92

                Total distance: 91.11mi

                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                 

                 

                Ian5


                  DW-Is that an all time PW or a course PW,if the first then that's incredible.

                  Jmac-Getting in to Cal territory with the miles there,hope you continue to balance on the tightrope.

                  10 miles today felt pretty tough,maybe a bit much doing 2x10's straight after each other.

                  5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                  Fishyone


                    JMac- Very nice week!  All of those miles with quality runs mixed in will reap benefits.

                     

                    Steve- I think you're approaching this absolutely correctly.  I think Cal put is best taking small chunks and racing at your fitness level is best. My best races were always run with a reasonable goal and each improvement was incremental (usually about 4 minute improvement per cycle 3:12-3:08-3:04-2:58).  I seem to get myself in trouble when I try to bite off too much.....

                     

                    DW- 140 TDP for a half is ROUGH sledding!!

                     

                    CAL- Your week reminds me of some of the old 13,13,13,13,13,13,13 weeks.  They certainly paid off then....

                     

                    Flavio- On every run I mentally prepare myself for the strength work I'm going to start doing.  Problem is I never do it! It's a mental thing I just can't get past. I have the weights, bench, equipment but it sits there staring at me.  On a positive note its a great drying rack for clothes.

                     

                    My week- Unplanned step back from 3 weeks in the mid-80s. When it became apparent that work wasn't going to budge I accepted it and will hopefully benefit from the break.

                     

                      Week 12        
                    Date Name Miles Duration Avg/Mile Notes
                    9/12 AM Commute 13.1 1:54:00 8:42  
                    9/13 AM Commute 7.3 1:05:38 8:57  
                    9/13 PM Commute 7.8 1:03:53 8:12 PM fartleks
                    9/14 Lunch Run 13.0 1:50:01 8:28 MLR 
                    9/16 AM Commute 7.7 1:09:54 9:04  
                    9/16 PM Commute 7.7 1:07:16 8:48  
                    9/17 AM Commute 20.1 2:45:29 8:14 Long run
                               
                      Total: 76.6      

                    5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                    CommanderKeen


                    Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                      Stuff not in the HM thread...

                       

                      Merkle - Nice race result.


                      Cal - Thanks for pointing out that I have the worst short distance-to-marathon conversion ever! My 37:55 10k last November only converted to a 4:08 marathon at CIM. 
                      That's a pretty good "OK" week.


                      Steve - Nice week. You've really been hammering the LRs lately.


                      Flavio - I'm sorry your wife's PR attempt didn't work out. Will she have a chance for another later in the year?
                      Scary stuff with her passing out like that and then not getting any attention at the "Emergency" room.


                      Dave - Solid mileage, and killer LR. 6 straight at LT pace? That's seems rather aggressive to me for most people who aren't running a HM in about an hour.


                      DWave - I didn't mention this in the other thread, but 140 Kiwi Point? I don't like running 5ks in that, let alone a HM.


                      JMac - You've certainly been smashing thing lately. How are the doubles treating you thus far?
                      You don't seem to be accounting for the extra fatigue of doubles/increased mileage in your pace calculations.

                       

                      I had a fairly good week, though a few days of interrupted sleep served to make it harder on me than it should have.
                      My 5k went pretty well, and I couldn't obviously see where the alleged extra ~100m was. If it was a bit long then this would have been a new PR without the extra distance.
                      I did manage to get a nice win against a guy I consider a local rival. Last year we traded back-and-forth for a few races on who beat whom. We were within a stride or two of each other for the first 3k when he pulled ahead by 20m or so. I passed him by 4k and ended up gapping him by 9 seconds to win the AG. Said rival is also a new entrant to my AG, which makes it a little sweeter.
                      I think I've been able to reach a little deeper than before in my past two races, something that makes me quite happy.

                       

                      Weekly for period: From: 09/12/2022 To 09/18/2022

                      Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                      in ft
                      09/12 1 owl 11.00 17.71 01:29:41 08:09 05:04 453
                      09/12 15 turtles 5.00 8.05 00:42:09 08:26 05:14 197
                      09/13 1 owl & 1 large fire far away 9.00 14.49 01:23:12 09:15 05:45 472
                      09/14 30' + 20' @ HMe 15.26 24.55 01:54:03 07:28 04:39 459
                      09/14 2 AWACS 4.05 6.52 00:35:48 08:50 05:29 187
                      09/15 2 hawks & 1 heron 8.01 12.88 01:13:36 09:11 05:43 407
                      09/16 5 deer (5 strides) & 2 great horned owls 10.01 16.10 01:30:25 09:02 05:37 479
                      09/17 Course preview 4.00 6.44 00:31:58 08:00 04:58 39
                      09/17 Brookhaven Run 3.13 5.04 00:18:19 05:51 03:38 36
                      09/17 5x 3' easy, 3' medium, 2' hard 7.58 12.19 00:56:45 07:29 04:39 121
                      09/18 1 great horned owl 6.00 9.66 00:54:28 09:05 05:38 243

                      Total distance: 83.04mi

                      5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                       

                      Upcoming Races:

                       


                      On the roads again...

                        Dave PNW: Three weeks out, a 22 mile long run, 8% slower than planned MP, looks like a good test. You passed! Dial in the MP a little this week, pass again, and I think you're good for 3:15 .

                         

                         

                        Yeah but I still haven't run a race so I don't know how my body will hold up to the last 10km.  Also, I've been training towards my goal time so if I suddenly decide to take 10 minutes off that, I'm asking my body to do what I didn't train for.  I guess when you've done as many as you guys, maybe you forget your first and the fear involved?  I did hear a good piece of advice the other day - you only get one first marathon so make sure you enjoy it.

                         

                        Sub 3:10 is what your rule suggests.  But how many people get a lifetime PR in their first marathon?

                         

                         

                        Umm... Me!* In a situation similar to yours. I'd been running with a club for about 4 years; lots of halfs but respected the distance to much to try a marathon before. Clubmates were suggesting a faster pace than my conservative 4:59/k (8 min/mile) plan (Halfx2 +20). I started off with the 3:30 pace group, but it seemed too slow and I pulled a bit ahead after 5k. Then ran into a very experienced clubmate to run with; it seemed half the large local crowd knew him and would cheer for him at every corner. He would respond by stepping up the pace just a little. We went through the half at 1:43:50, not far off 3:30 pace, but then... every Km got a little faster. At 39k, he said he was out of gas, and I should go ahead. But I stuck with him and we got in at 3:23 (~5 min neg. split). A dream race - thoroughly enjoyed it!

                        Your plan for 3:15 pacing, then let's see in the last 10k, sounds pretty good to me!

                        - - - - -
                        * Pretty embarassing really, but 6 months after that I moved back to the US and a much tougher job. I ran Boston the next spring, might have beaten the PR time but got greedy and crashed on a warm day. Then I really wound up in the job from hell (idiot boss, 12+ hr days), never got back to the same fitness, and got multiple injuries because I didn't know enough to train well. I ran 3:23 high two more times, but couldn't squeeze out a PR. By the time I got smarter about training, aging had slowed me down. At Boston 2012, I thought I had a chance at 3:20, but it turned out to be 30⁰C (86⁰F) at the start and got worse. Barely finished; it wrecked me for months. Worst mistake ever to pass on the free deferment offered.

                        Neil

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I'm here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. - Hunter S. Thompson


                        Pain is my friend

                          Almost taper time. Started the week a bit tired post pacing my buddy for 8 hours over the weekend. My long run went ok too. My hammy pain flared up. I am hoping it recovers before race day.

                          Weekly for period: From: 09/12/2022 To 09/18/2022

                          Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                          in ft
                          09/12 Warm up with my little girl 2.02 3.26 00:26:18 13:01 08:04 56
                          09/12 The long 9 progressive home 11.01 17.72 01:24:02 07:38 04:45 666
                          09/13 Just missed the rain 🌧 8.11 13.04 01:11:04 08:46 05:27 295
                          09/14 Uphill recovery time for the rest of the day. 7.34 11.81 01:03:17 08:37 05:22 564
                          09/15 There is no place more fun to run than a dark sckechy ally way with no street laps. 10.20 16.41 01:24:36 08:18 05:09 262
                          09/15 Soccer warm up 0.53 0.86 00:04:36 08:41 05:21 20
                          09/15 Soccer practice 0.45 0.72 00:20:51 46:20 28:58 121
                          09/16 Pollution particulate matter is slowing down cognitive brain function 6.10 9.82 00:52:24 08:35 05:20 230
                          09/17 Down by the river running out and back 20.01 32.20 02:46:05 08:18 05:09 348

                          Total distance: 65.78mi

                          ATY 24   141.445 2019

                          Bear 100 22:08 2021 

                           

                          Revolution run 5 hours Jan 1 2022- 36 miles 1st

                          Jackpot 100 Feb 14:59 - 5th

                          Zions 100- 21:24 4th

                          St George marathon Oct 1st 2:58

                          Across the years 24 Dec 31st 

                           

                          flavio1980


                          Intl. correspondent

                             

                            Flavio - I'm sorry your wife's PR attempt didn't work out. Will she have a chance for another later in the year?
                            Scary stuff with her passing out like that and then not getting any attention at the "Emergency" room.

                             

                            Just to clarify, it's not uncommon that she'll faint due to the heat, that happened before maybe 5 or 6 times now. I figure her sweating system must be flawed.

                            But she was alright soon after, I just got a bit scared that she fainted twice, in hindsight we should probably just have headed home.

                            PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                            Up next: 10K Family race

                            Tool to generate Strava weekly

                            Mikkey


                            Mmmm Bop

                              - - - - -
                              * Pretty embarassing really, but 6 months after that I moved back to the US and a much tougher job. I ran Boston the next spring, might have beaten the PR time but got greedy and crashed on a warm day. Then I really wound up in the job from hell (idiot boss, 12+ hr days), never got back to the same fitness, and got multiple injuries because I didn't know enough to train well. I ran 3:23 high two more times, but couldn't squeeze out a PR. By the time I got smarter about training, aging had slowed me down. At Boston 2012, I thought I had a chance at 3:20, but it turned out to be 30⁰C (86⁰F) at the start and got worse. Barely finished; it wrecked me for months. Worst mistake ever to pass on the free deferment offered.

                               

                              If only you’d chosen Boston 2011 instead as I remember lots of runners PRing that day with a big tailwind!

                               

                              I’m thinking there’s no point in even having a goal time until a couple of days before the race.

                              5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                              Marky_Mark_17


                                Had a bit of a laugh at this.

                                3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                                10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                                * Net downhill course

                                Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

                                Up next: Speights West Coaster, 10 Dec

                                "CONSISTENCY IS KING"