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Does training "wrong and rough" toughen us more than training "right"? ... Better for races? ... "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger"? (Read 235 times)

runnerclay


Consistently Slow

    +1

     

    If its mental training you're after, I'd think strong effort (faster or longish runs) on back to back days on fatigued legs should be a better stimulus than learning to hold on for dear life after starting out too fast, and likely fading all through the run.

    Run until the trail runs out.

     SCHEDULE 2016--

     The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

    unsolicited chatter

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    Notne


      Thanks for the comments guys, a lot to think about.

       

      At the very minimum, it reminded me how stupid it is not to warm up more (stretches and a few jumping jacks doesn't cut it).

       

      Runnerclay, I love your sig. I'm reading "The Power of Now", and it reads like it could come straight out of that!

        You definitely learn as you go...

         

        but personally I try to work as efficiently as possible.

         

        If I workout for an hour, I want 1 hr worth of results not 35mins. and so forth...

        300m- 37 sec.

        Notne


          Can I run some other probably dumb questions by you guys and girls?

           

          1) Dehydration - does intentionally training a bit dehydrated make one more efficient at doing so … and could that possibly help in a longer race?

           

          2) Empty carbohydrate stores - Not sure if I mean glucose or glycogen, but … does a long run after an overnight fast and without gels etc., i.e., the *opposite* of what one would do for a long race, make the body more tolerant of that and more efficient at extracting fuel from fat … and could that possibly help in a long race?

           

          Thanks!

          Marky_Mark_17


            1. Re dehydration, training in a dehydrated state will almost certainly do more harm than good.  What you're really trying to stimulate is the ability of the body to deal with warm or humid conditions - the best way to do this is actually a couple weeks training in those conditions which will help you to acclimatise.  Training while dehydrated will just lead to cramping or feeling like complete rubbish.

             

            2. Yes, running while in a fasted state is generally regarded as being helpful in terms of training your body how to use its energy stores effectively - you might've heard the phrase 'train low and race high'.  Comes down a bit to what works for you as an individual though, I almost always train before breakfast, but for longer runs I'll still typically take a gel or two with me.

            5000m: 16:03 (Dec-18) | 5km: 16:24 (Nov-18) | 10km: 34:08 (Sep-18) HM: 1:14:42 (Apr-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

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            "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

            Seattle prattle


              as for the training in a carb depleted state, it is a popular technique now, but is used only intermittently. It involves completely refraining from consuming any carbs for at least 12 hours before a workout. This is done not more than a couple of times a week, not every day.

              This is generally accepted to be more beneficial for advanced runners and its debatable how effective it would be for more recreational runners. Goal is to accustom your body to shifting to metabolizing fat as a fuel source late in an endurance event when the carbs get depleted.

              Notne


                Thanks, Marky_mark_17 and Seattle Prattle.

                 

                I wonder why fitness and performance increase while running in one deprived state (fasting) but not the other (running dehydrated).

                 

                Anyway, I'll keep running in the mornings before eating (I have a hard time with anything in the stomach, I don't get nauseous, just feel like I'm carrying a few bricks in my midsection), and try to remember to hydrate up the night before and have a few sips before going out.

                 

                Cheers!

                  From a bodybuilding angle...

                   

                  it seemed the evidence showed cardio in a fasted state...burned muscle and fat, so to me, I want to burn the fat and carbs, not the muscle...

                  300m- 37 sec.

                  Notne


                    From a bodybuilding angle...

                     

                    it seemed the evidence showed cardio in a fasted state...burned muscle and fat, so to me, I want to burn the fat and carbs, not the muscle...

                     

                    Wow, if true that is very important. 90% of my runs are in the fasted state (about 10 hrs of fasting since dinner until the AM run). I'd be fighting against myself if I were burning muscle instead of 100% building it under those circumstances.

                     

                    I'm going to try to find out more about that. Any links easily passed along, PoleVaultMiller?

                     

                    Thanks!

                      Not too often (or never) are regular serious runners who are competing or looking to be better runners are having the mind set of putting on muscle or maintaining muscle. If you want to be a better runner, there is no place in your head to be thinking from a bodybuilders viewpoint. I know because I come from both backgrounds and have struggled with both mindsets for years.

                       

                      So, if comfortable with running in a fasted state (like I am) and feel fine doing so, keep doing it. It is way complicated and not black and white to figure out what is being burnt while running and in all cases you are burning a combo of fats, carbs and proteins while running. The percentages vary based on intensity, your fitness level, length of run and ingestion of calories and timing of ingestion. I personally feel there are benefits in running in a fasted state especially for longer training runs. The only exception would be if you simply cannot perform or get through your runs feeling good. We are all individual so what works for one may not work for another. I do not recommend racing in a fasted state however.

                      H-WAVE - Helping Athletes Heal and Recover Faster

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                        Thanks, Marky_mark_17 and Seattle Prattle.

                         

                        I wonder why fitness and performance increase while running in one deprived state (fasting) but not the other (running dehydrated).

                         

                        A comment:  there's a big difference between:

                         

                        1) things that cause known physiologic changes that also increase the perceived or actual difficulty of the run.  For example, altitude training increases red blood cells; training in heat/humidity increases blood volume; training without fuel arguably increases fat burning; training on hills builds power and develops good running form

                         

                        and

                         

                        2) things that just make the run feel or be harder, without a physiologic benefit.  That includes stuff like running while sleep deprived; running hard without a warm-up; running while dehydrated, etc.

                         

                        Don't confuse one for the other.

                         

                        Something can make a run much more challenging but NOT produce a physiologic benefit.  And it makes no sense to structure a run in a way that makes it harder but does NOT provide a physiologic benefit unless you are specifically replicating a situation you'll find on race day.

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                        strambo


                          Great post darkwave

                           

                          Reminds me of the people I still see on occasion jogging in a sweatsuit like Rocky (when I'm running in shorts and t-shirt).  Dehydration isn't helping and it isn't real weight loss.   These folks aren't trying to make weight for a sport either.


                          I'm out of ideas

                            Great post darkwave

                             

                            Reminds me of the people I still see on occasion jogging in a sweatsuit like Rocky (when I'm running in shorts and t-shirt).  Dehydration isn't helping and it isn't real weight loss.   These folks aren't trying to make weight for a sport either.

                             

                            Maybe they're trying to acclimate to the heat.

                            2019 Races:

                                  6/01/19 - IHM Nun Run 5K

                                  6/08/19 - Eagle Up Ultra 24-Hour

                                  6/29/19 - Loopy Bunny 6-Hour

                                  8/17/19 - Lean Horse 30M

                                  9/21/19 - NC24

                            strambo


                              ^^^^

                               

                              Heh, no, I randomly see them running around my neighborhood.  Time of year doesn't matter, bundled up going for the max sweat, 60 deg or 90deg out.

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