Forums >Racing>2017 Sub 3 Marathons...and beyond!
Mmmm Bop
Hi Folks, been staying away due to hurts - posterior tibial tendon nonsense. Any rehab tips gratefully received. well raced Mikkey Maybe for staying up to date on everyone's races we could just have our upcoming races in our signature lines, save Andres a job of updating a list and saves referring back?
Hi Folks, been staying away due to hurts - posterior tibial tendon nonsense. Any rehab tips gratefully received.
well raced Mikkey
Maybe for staying up to date on everyone's races we could just have our upcoming races in our signature lines, save Andres a job of updating a list and saves referring back?
Thanks and sorry to hear about the PTT. I had it off and on for a long time (but never bad enough to stop running completely or wear a boot) and it can be a very frustrating injury because it clears up when you reduce mileage and then comes back again when you increase mileage. I did all the recommended strength exercises...but it didn’t really make much difference.
If you’ve got some spare cash and don’t mind pain then maybe see a Chiropractor and try Active Release Technique which will break down the scar tissue and aid a full recovery. Obviously you’ll need to figure out what caused the injury.
If you’re able to run some miles then avoid hills...and the treadmill won’t aggravate it as much as tarmac running. For me KT tape was very helpful for support (I recommend Ares Extreme tape which you can buy for a tenner a roll on eBay and sticks better)
Paris - Congrats!
IAM - Is 2:38:59 a MM for you?
JMac - Maybe going through the half in 1:29 is a good thing at NYC....you will need to save some energy for Queensboro Bridge and then power your way up 5th Avenue!
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Paris - congrats.
PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)
40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018), full 3:13:55 (Sep 2022)
2023 PRs (hope to beat in 2024): 5km 20:34, 10km 41:37, half 1:32:32, full 3:21:05
2024 PRs: 5km 20:25
RIP Milkman
Nah, I'm going for the blow up special. It makes it more fun!
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Great race Paris - so often I've messed up a good training cycle with poor race day planning and execution. Good to see someone with a smart plan that they execute flawlessly.
I’m not sure if you’ve settled on a goal time...but imo I think NYC is about 2/3min slower than a flat course (for a 3 hour runner) and the slowdown is all in the 2nd half of the course. I thought 5th Ave was the hardest part to get through mentally and physically as it just invites you to give up so late in the race. Just saying!
I totally agree with you that 5th Ave is the hardest part of the course. It's just mentally draining to run uphill for a good mile, even at a tiny upgrade, when you're 23 miles in. I'll also add that 2-3 minutes is exactly what I'm planning on. However, my approach is to run even effort. I think I'm in 2:55 shape on a completely flat course. Since the first half is relatively flat, I think the right strategy is to actually run around 6:40 pace on the vast majority of the first half. I was only joking about the blow up special, but I think NYC requires a positive split due to the hills in the second half (3 bridges plus 5th ave). Once you include the Verazanno and the slowish start, my goal would be something like 1:28/1:30 split.
I'm afraid that going through the half around 1:29 will leave me too little margin for error in the second half, even if it means I saved up energy. I'm also not sure that one can really "save" energy by running a slower first half, but as an inexperienced marathoner, I will definitely take others' advice. If that were the case, why doesn't everybody run their first half in 1:31? I think the right strategy for any course is just even effort, which for NYC necessitates positive splits.
Mikkey, cheers, I'll check out that tape. And probably cancel a bunch of upcoming cross country races.
Paris - Great run, I know what you mean about needing to stay mentally focused once you know that your big goal is in the bag and just pushing it for a good a result as you can get on the day. Huge PR.
Upcoming; 14th Sep Scottish veterans XC trials, 289th Sep Great Scottish Run 1/2, 12th October TAMA half marathon, 27th October Leeds Abbey dash 10k
paris: congrats!
jmac: I was 2:58:50 at NYC in 2015. I just looked up splits, and was 1:28:09 at the half, so 1:30:41 in the second half. So this is more or less the split you describe. Weird race for me though, because I was probably in low 2:5x shape a month out, but got hurt. Anyways, I mostly agree that a 1.5-2.5 minute positive split is in order. 5th avenue is the literal worst, and I hate it to this day.finbad: Agree with Mikkey. If you're used to locating and busting scar tissue, do that 2x/day. If not, go see someone who knows how to do this for runners.
mikkey: I turn 40 two weeks after Richmond, so yeah, a MM at Richmond would require sub 2:39.
https://www.strava.com/athletes/5795019
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threeDB: For Sunday in Lowell, I see this: 8AM T: 51 DP: 39, 11AM T: 65 DP: 44. That's TDP 90 (!) at the start, and 109 3 hours later. This is actually totally fine, isn't it? Doesn't look like you'll get over TDP until 10AM anyways. I'd take that right now for Richmond.
IAM: thanks for the weather forecast! Finishing in 60's and sun... I was hoping to run miles 20-26 in temps of high 40's / low 50's because I think I have the fitness to snipe 2:43-2:44 on a cold day, and really lock-in 1/1. I almost feel like I'm on defense in ~warm weather rather than on offense in cold weather. I need to re-frame that in my head by Sunday morning.
paris: awesome change in PR -- congrats! It seems like those Daniels programs can do wonders.
weatherboy: amazing to train in that heat, in some respects it's like Swim running at altitude. I get to FL each summer and the fitness boost is always noticeable when I return to New England. Some day you should sign up for a cold marathon e.g. Philadelphia (November).
andres: thanks for updating the race list on page 1. Regarding goals, yes, for me it's down to vanity plates (three digit bib at Boston) and moose mugs, as I won't be winning many races (too slow), and I can't get emotionally attached to / motivated by some arbitrary time... I have to be "going somewhere" as a result. It's pretty damn cool to be in 1/2 at Boston and have the elites walk right next to you on their way to the starting line ~100 feet in front of you. Starting near the front of that race is - for me - a mind-blowing achievement, and I pinch myself every year. To me, it's a goal worth training for.
Fly - What corral are you starting out of? I haven't decided on goal pace but I'm pretty sure I want to hit the first half faster than 1:29 since the back is so much harder. I'm afraid a 1:29 will make it difficult for me to go sub 3.
I am 'Green Wave 1 Corral A' (9:50AM start), Bib #3714. I agree, 1:29 is too slow. I've been looking through last year's results, and I saw some fairly even splits on the older sub-3 guys. I think I'll go with 1:28ish and try to run close to even splits.
My observation(s) on pacing:
(1) Fast old guys run very even paced races
(2) Women that run similar finish times are generally better at pacing than men
(3) Higher age-graded finishers run smart races (this supports the previous two)
(4) Local guys have more course-specific knowledge and experience, and likely have run the course several times in both training and racing.
Hint: For my final race strategy -- I'm looking up previous year results of high-age graded local runners around my goal time and averaging out their 5K splits as my target 5K splits.
https://www.strava.com/athletes/2507437
PR's - 5K - 17:57 (2017) | 10K - 38:06 (2016) | 13.1 1:23:55 (2019) | 26.2 2:58:46 (2017)
2020 Goals - Sub-2:55 Marathon Up Next: TBD, Boston on 9/14?
My bib for NYC is #1556 (Andres, not sure if you keep track of this, but just throwing it out there now since Fly had his out there too).
Very interesting takeaways on pace. I downloaded Greg Maclin's NYC course pacing spreadsheet. If you assuming running a perfectly even effort for 2:59:59, he would say coming through the half at 1:29:33. That of course assumes no fading at all, which I think is optimistic.
I was looking through some other runners, and man you are right. Most people are positive splitting by 5 minutes or more, even around 2:55 pace. I'm seeing some 2:52 runners coming through the half at 1:20. Yikes. I have only found one person within a 2 minute split. Let's try to follow IAm's model and get this done!
ThreeDB - Good luck this weekend! Do you have a bib for tracking?
JMac - I ran NYC last year by 5k splits until my garmin lost it going down the Queensboro bridge. 1st 25k: 6:49 (very conservative up and over Verrazano), 6:41, 6:41, 6:41, 6:55 (up Queensboro). I was surprised how easy this pace felt. I support 2-3 min positive split. My slow second half was because I hadn't trained for it. You have and I think you're going to have a great time! I think you'll find the 1st half very easy around 6:40 pace and I would go with that. Keep it under control and don't go faster.
+1, this is good advice. The other thing that I'll mention about NYC is that the combo of the 59th street bridge and the turn onto 1st avenue are a complete trap. You go uphill, over the bridge, then come down and around the huge turn onto 1st, and there a bazillion people there hollering. As you get towards mile 18 or so the crowds thin, and if you put too much out between the bridge and the crowd, this is where you can feel it. I remember a lot of people starting to flake out around this point. Another random thing: GPS for me was weird but not obviously wrong on 1st, so I thought I was running 10s/mile faster than I actually was. If I were running NYC again, I'd probably manual lap to account for that.