Forums >Running 101>Threshold Pace?
Why is it sideways?
As a corollary to the above: You don't want to practice falling apart, but you shouldn't be afraid of it happening. In other words, accept that chances are you will go too hard at times, you will "fail" and blow up. Doing this is not a bad thing; in fact, it's a good thing. You learn from those failures. You learn what "too hard" means, you learn where that razor's edge is and how to walk it.
As a corollary to the above:
You don't want to practice falling apart, but you shouldn't be afraid of it happening. In other words, accept that chances are you will go too hard at times, you will "fail" and blow up. Doing this is not a bad thing; in fact, it's a good thing. You learn from those failures. You learn what "too hard" means, you learn where that razor's edge is and how to walk it.
I've got a fever...
So, is there a feeling associated with approaching lactate threshold? I was a sprinter (100m/200m) in high school, but not a great one. Not really even a very good one. I mainly ran track to add explosiveness for football. However, I do remember running 400s. Those sucked. I would sprint as fast as I could around the track and at about the 330 mark I would feel like I was going to collapse, couldn't suck wind fast enough. There's a weird sort of taste associated with that feeling as well. I kind of get that when I sprint at the end of a race now or maybe a little earlier in a 5k. Would that be approaching lactate threshold?
I was a sprinter (100m/200m) in high school, but not a great one. Not really even a very good one. I mainly ran track to add explosiveness for football. However, I do remember running 400s. Those sucked. I would sprint as fast as I could around the track and at about the 330 mark I would feel like I was going to collapse, couldn't suck wind fast enough. There's a weird sort of taste associated with that feeling as well. I kind of get that when I sprint at the end of a race now or maybe a little earlier in a 5k.
Would that be approaching lactate threshold?
On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office. But you will wish that you'd spent more time running. Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.
You keep poking and well...
Well gee, apologies for not really quite getting all of this. To me "comfortably hard" is not a very precise concept on purpose. Which is why it is kind of an art to get right.
Sometimes it seems like you post stuff intentionally to trap people in words and concepts and then you pop them when they don't get it.
We don't all have your big brain.
I think of a comfortably hard tempo/threshold run as one I could do again if I absolutely had to, but I'm damn glad that I don't have to. 20 minutes at a pace you could sustain for an all-out 1-hour race.
I know the big brain concept was for Jeff, but I just use the tempo paces per McMillan or Daniels' (adjusted for duration as well), or the Tinman Tempo paces that I use more frequently. I don't really worry if I'm too uncomfortable, or too comfortable. I just try to hit those paces that someone else has already done the science behind. Most cases, I try to error on the side of too hard, but that's just me.
Well gee, apologies for not really quite getting all of this. To me "comfortably hard" is not a very precise concept on purpose. Which is why it is kind of an art to get right. Sometimes it seems like you post stuff intentionally to trap people in words and concepts and then you pop them when they don't get it. We don't all have your big brain.
I called it poking because your single sentence "You definition of 'very precise' and mine vary" offered no reasons or suggestion as to why they vary after I spent a lot (probably too many) words in explanation of what I meant. That's a poke. I poked back.
I'm sorry my posts come across as arrogant or condescending. That is not my intent.
For the record, I get what a tempo run is. I had difficulty with understanding mikeymike's "obvious" statement, but now I get that too and it makes a lot of sense.
I got lost in the whole plate spinning show about whether an apple or a coconut is a more "precise" thingy. It's a trap!
It's cool. This has been a very useful thread overall.
Great discussion. As an older runner, I'm all about extracting as much bang as possible for my body-punishing training buck.
Kimmie, the problems that come from running too fast are that you get too tired. Your form breaks down. You lose your rhythm. And you learn to associate running fast with a hard effort. In short, you lose control. When training, you want to practice running well and strong, not falling apart and suffering. It's just like any other sport.
At the risk of poking ... I'd also thought a negative to the too-fast tempo pace was that when you've crossed the LT, other physiological mechanisms are put into play (or perhaps emphasized), lessening the stress applied to the LT pathways/mechanisms. It had been likened to learning to tread water by having your face just above the water's surface most of the time v. just below the surface. Yeah, you'll learn to tread water, but the latter method isn't optimal.
MTA: sorry about the weird quoting.
"I want you to pray as if everything depends on it, but I want you to prepare yourself as if everything depends on you."
-- Dick LeBeau
I called it poking because your single sentence "You definition of 'very precise' and mine vary" offered no reasons or suggestion as to why they vary after I spent a lot (probably too many) words in explanation of what I meant. That's a poke. I poked back. I'm sorry my posts come across as arrogant or condescending. That is not my intent.
It wasn't intended to be a poke. I guess what I should have added to my post was "I don't understand your post".
I don't need to understand it really.
You're right, I'm intentionally trying to trap people. You can fuck off.
So long as it feels comfortably hard.
Message received.
You are a very nice guy and you provide lots of help to people on this board. You are also very sensitive, which is a fine thing too. But you DO kind of fuck with people from time to time. Intentionally at times. Unintentionally at times. And when you feel like you have been fucked with (which was unintentional this time on my part, but I accept that this is how it felt), you don't really like it.
So consider me fucked off, but remember this next time someone feels a little poked by your posts.
Great discussion. As an older runner, I'm all about extracting as much bang as possible for my body-punishing training buck. At the risk of poking ... I'd also thought a negative to the too-fast tempo pace was that when you've crossed the LT, other physiological mechanisms are put into play (or perhaps emphasized), lessening the stress applied to the LT pathways/mechanisms. It had been likened to learning to tread water by having your face just above the water's surface most of the time v. just below the surface. Yeah, you'll learn to tread water, but the latter method isn't optimal. MTA: sorry about the weird quoting.
Yeah, all this may or may not be right. I'm not an exercise physiologist, so despite my BIG BRAIN I don't know. My point is only that out on the road you aren't measuring your LT. I'm not sure whether LT can be associated best with a certain pace or better with a certain feeling. I'm claiming that really you only need to be in the ballpark and that it's most likely a myth that you have to run one particular pace (one hour race pace or what have you) to get a maximal physiological effect (and, again, I'll say I don't even know what is meant by "physiological effect" other than getting faster.) I also think that tempo running does a lot more than just get you close to your LT, like helps you practice running strong at a solid pace. This probably also has neuromuscular effects that are good too. But like I said, I'm not a physiologist so I'd rather talk about running strong and having good form. This does not seem less precise to me. But it does to other people. I'm okay with that, to quote srlopez.
Message received. You are a very nice guy and you provide lots of help to people on this board. You are also very sensitive, which is a fine thing too. But you DO kind of fuck with people from time to time. Intentionally at times. Unintentionally at times. And when you feel like you have been fucked with (which was unintentional this time on my part, but I accept that this is how it felt), you don't really like it. So consider me fucked off, but remember this next time someone feels a little poked by your posts.
Thanks for the help. And the nice words. You're right. I overreacted. Ah well. It's probably keeping people interested. But yes probably also making me look like an ass.
Prince of Fatness
consider me fucked off
For the record I am not considering this, simply because the image in my head disagrees with me.
Not at it at all.