Where do I go from here? (Read 1322 times)

Sigh.  I like you both and hate to both see this happening and wade into this...rather than getting emotional I am going to provide data and point some things out.

Link

This is the Montana mountain goat harvest report from 2005 (because it was the easiest to read).  Go to Page 39.

You will notice several things:

1)  Depending on district, success rates vary from 50-100%.  Average is in the 60-80% range.

2)  Days in the field/hunter varied from 3-11. 

So on average, it took a hunter about a full 7-day week in the field to have a 2/3 shot at taking a goat.  Personally I would not equate a week of all-day, hard hunting at altitude with shooting fish in a barrel. 

Regarding the comments about money, one simply cannot claim that the money hunters spend does not help maintain wildlife if they have done any research on the subject at all.  AFAIK every F&G/DNR in the nation is funded through those dollars...tens of thousands of acres of land (especially out west) are preserved for wildlife though those dollars.  I've personally hunted land that would have been developed or cleared for cattle, had it not been bought and preserved using dollars from hunting.

The only reason duck populations in this country did not collapse due to modern ag practices was the preservation efforts of hunter groups like Ducks Unlimited.

The only reason we still had pheasants...and habitat which also then supported other wildlife...was the aggressive action of Pheasants Forever, another hunter group.

People protect and nurture things that have value.  It was not all that long ago that many African governements (which have enough problems) didn't give two shakes about their wildlife and protecting species.  However, once they learned that foreigners were willing to pay a good sum of money to come hunt them, they've now started to fiercely protect those populations. 

Equating "hunters" of 100 years ago with hunters of today is a false comparison.  Hunters back then that nearly exterminated wolves and buffalo were in business; they were commercial (selling meat or pelts) or doing what they were doing to protect another commercial interest (cattle).  The purpose, intent and methods bear little resemblance to anything today.

My area is an ecological wasteland....almost nothing but farm fields, very little habitat for anything.  I have been putting 5 years sweat equity and a decent amount of money into turning 10 acres back into good wildlife habitat...partly with help from Pheasants Forever and some state programs funded by hunter money. 

MTA:  As npaden said below, hunting is a complex thing and hunters for the most part are not bloodthirsty killers.  One could point to the Indians, who also killed wildlife, and the respect they had for those same animals.  I respect people who choose not to hunt or don't agree with it for reasons I don't understand.  All I'd ask is the same respect returned.  It's easy to criticize something you don't understand...and easy to alienate people who you may otherwise have more in common with than differ.

 Spaniel, you must have missed this:

Who started a hunting debate?  Not me, otherwise spaniel and I would have gone at it a million times.  I was expressing surprise and shock that people hunted mountain goats.

Hunting Mountain Goats

This isn't about ducks, Africa, 100 years ago, elk, and hunting in general.

This is about shooting an animal that I have to be careful not to trip over a hour after I get off the plane at DIA.  This is about shooting an animal that if it was any more tame it would walk over to me when I make little kissy noises at it and say, "here goaty-goat".  This is about shooting an animal that you can do a drive-by on because they stand around licking roads for the salt.  This is shooting an animal that shows exactly the same avoidance of people as a cow does (hence the shooting cows in Wisconsin analogy), and can be found above the tree line, so you don't even need to walk around and find one.  Sit somewhere for an hour and you will see one.

I believe that not everyone on a mountain goat hunt gets one.  I think everyone knows that a way too high percentage of hunters use getting out into the woods with a gun as an excuse to get blind drunk.  You would have to be passed out to miss one.

And no, npaden, that picture is not mine.  My photos are distinguishable because they look like they were taken by a 3rd grader.

 

Hunting deer in Wisconsin requires no talent.

"The 2009 deer season ended with a statewide registered harvest of approximately 330,000 deer by 842,873 licenses - a success ratio of one deer for every 2.5 licenses issued."  -- WDNR news release

Note that talented hunters are going to be filling multiple licenses, so the success ratio on a per-hunter basis is even lower.

Wrigleygirl,

Here's a post on a hunting forum where a guy was unsuccesful on his mountain goat hunt last year. 

He didn't get in as many days as he would have liked, but somehow didn't ever manage to trip over one.

As far as I could tell from reading it, he wasn't ever passed out drunk.

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=247302

MTA: Just went back and re-read that post.  There are pictures of dead animals in there so if you are easily offended, you might not want to read it.  Some other folks posted some of their pictures of their successes, the original poster wasn't as lucky.

On the subject of eating animals: I saw an interesting movie the other night, Forks Over Knives. I am not a vegetarian, but this movie makes an interesting case. 

"The 2009 deer season ended with a statewide registered harvest of approximately 330,000 deer by 842,873 licenses - a success ratio of one deer for every 2.5 licenses issued."  -- WDNR news release

 

Note that talented hunters are going to be filling multiple licenses, so the success ratio on a per-hunter basis is even lower.

Are you sure all of those 842,873 licenses were actually issued. I don't know that they are. And not all of those tags are for "either sex" and some hunters that hold either sex are hunting Bucks only anyway letting tags go unfilled. Another thing that skews those numbers are land owner tags. Many land owners take the tags but don't actually go hunting. They grab them in case a friend wants one or should they see that monster buck they've been seeing all year while out counting cattle.

As a yearly deer hunter in Wisconsin I usually have my 3 tags filled with in the first 4 hours. I hunt for the meat, I'm not interested in saving a tag for a trophy. I'm also not a talented hunter. There have been times I haven't filled all of my tags but not because I didn't have an opportunity. There are days all you see are young button bucks and small doe...ya let em go.

If you can't bag a deer in Wisconsin or Iowa you are a piss poor hunter.

My point was counter to the sudden disappearence of deer come hunting season. That doesn't happen.

Npaden, I agree that 25 miles per week should be sufficient to maintain your fitness, I also think that you should be careful about what you eat as I have always found that gaining unwanted weight is the number 1 thing that might affect your fitness for all the climbing you will be doing.

More importantly, best of luck with your goat hunt.  I myself am an avid deer hunter. I have hiked and run many hundreds  of miles (if not thousands, I didn't keep a log back then) in the woods of New England, North Carolina, Virginia and Georgia and I have never had the encounters with various wild life as a hiker or runner that I have had as a deer (or bear) hunter.  Non hunters can never seem to understand this.

Nice elk by the way.