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The Less is More approach - does it work? (Read 2185 times)


My Hero

    , Even a day can be too much depending on your conditioning level and training phase.
    Ok, forget get about the taper, Save Cheevers. What conditioning level & what training phase would one have to be in that taking even one day off would cause regression?
      If you truly believe you get stronger when you rest and not when you exercise, then how is cross training making you better? You aren't resting when you are cross training. I go back to all the people I know who have truly tried to do FIRST as it is given. With the low volume, almost all of them were unable to do the hard workouts they were supposed to do and ended up cutting back on them anyways.
      When you run it stresses particular muscles and joints. Your heart/lungs will adapt quicker than your muscle/skeletal system. You may often find yourself in a situation where your running muscles need to rest however your heart/lungs could do for a great workout. So when you cross train your running muscles tendons and joints rest even though you are getting an aerobic benefit.
        Technically, your body adapts to an exercise stimulus, and it occurs both during and after exercise. The bulk of the adaptation occurs shortly after the stimulus is applied, which is why it's recommended to intake carbs, protein and fluids immediately after a run. If you're trying to improve and improve a lot, you'll want as much adaptation as you can get. Resting a lot won't accomplish this because you won't have enough stimulus to adapt to. The adaptation falls off drastically within a few hours. Sure, you can continue to rest and rest and rest and you will adapt a bit more over time, but you're giving up precious training time. It's better to run again (more stimulus) and provoke more adaptation. Too much rest and you'll regress. Even a day can be too much depending on your conditioning level and training phase. Of course you also have to rebuild damage, and the harder and longer the workout, the more damage you incur and the longer this takes to fix. This is why most runners never develop much and aren't able to run as much as they should...they simply run too hard and curtail their development by forcing too much recovery time.
        You have some very good points. There are two variables that you have pointed out, adaptation and repair. Adaptation happens quickly, repair takes longer. If it was possible to run a very high volume that would produce adaptation and not require any body repair you would be in great shape. I suppose if you have a very high base you could run a lot while not requiring much repair. However for the average runner I really question if it is possible to stress the body enough to create adaptation without needing repair. For runners that want to get better I think we need both methods. There should be a many month long base building phase of high volume, low intensity, and there should be cycles of high intensity, low volume work. This shouldn't be an either/or situation but both. Also your personal goals should be adressed. If you want to see a signficant improvement in very short period of time, a plan like "FIRST" is what you want. If you are working towards long term goals a more traditional plan should be used.
        JimR


          So that means forget the taper for the Marathon? Run full tilt right up to the big day? You mean if I take the day off before a marathon I'll regress?
          Nah, you want everything recharged for the full. Different runs beat you up in different ways. Long stuff sucks all your resources, hard stuff pounds your tissues and joints. Taper ain't a vacation from running, you still run throghout it and there's a reason for that.
          JimR


            If it was possible to run a very high volume that would produce adaptation and not require any body repair you would be in great shape.
            So keep the bulk of your volume very easy, you can nearly attain this. There's always some level of damage occcurs, but even walking does that, your body takes care of it quickly.
            JimR


              If you want to see a signficant improvement in very short period of time, a plan like "FIRST" is what you want. If you are working towards long term goals a more traditional plan should be used.
              Nonsense. I'd been steady on PRs for 5 years of running and all at once my gains fell off. I use a 5 mile race I do every year as a benchmark, I'd improved over 5 years until I peaked with 33:19 3 years ago. The next 2 years my times fell off (not just that race but across the board) until I was high 34's for that event last year. This spring I simply said screw this, volume's going up, and within 8 weeks of starting this regime I gained a new PR at this race with 33:15. That is a significant gain in a short period of time doing nothing more than adding slow volume. My path was simple and a helluvalot easier than doing the 6 hard workouts week in and week out which is what you'll be doing on FIRST.


              Hawt and sexy

                Why is it every time this argument pops up, the people that think the FIRST type training is the best also somehow think they are completely incapable of running volume? Is laziness/lack of time a gene now? I will also chime in by saying that usually the problem of most people who prefer bang out every workout in running usually don't understand periodization and therefore cannot see that the FIRST program is just another way to get through peaking. Again a dropout rate of almost 20% should tell you something about the program. Like maybe almost 20% of the people attempting the training were not fit enough for the high intensity and should have continued with volume, or just started volume in the first place. Whether you like it or not, we are all human, and even if there is more than one way to skin a cat, we all need to start at the same place. You cannot skip base phase. You cannot pick up Runner's World and start a marathon plan, do the full 16 weeks, and expect to finish a marathon feeling good, or even halfway human. In order to do this and attempt to not get injured, you need to have some work in first. It's called a base phase. There are no shortcuts in marathoning. None. If you don't want to do the work, find something else as a hobby. Might I suggest crochet? I am currently making a pretty mean granny square afghan.

                I'm touching your pants.

                  I wouldn't call it laziness. The FIRST program calls for cross-training for 3 days in addition to the 3 key workouts, which are done at higher intensity. It's the marketing of "Marathon on 3 days of Running" which sells it as "less is more". It looks like more work than some beginner programs I have seen. I looked up the study again. Apparently 22/25 were listed as completing the training(88%). 21 ran the marathon, and 2 ended up running the half instead. They don't comment on those who didn't finish training and why-maybe from injuries, but could be other reasons. Perhaps injuries played into those running the half as well. 8 were described as "novices". They do discuss periodization, and show graphs indicating the need for increased volume leading into the training program.
                    Ok, forget get about the taper, Save Cheevers. What conditioning level & what training phase would one have to be in that taking even one day off would cause regression?
                    One day? I have no frickin' clue. I knew the taper issue was a red-herring, though. I also know that the more I run easy, the better I feel. I tried the FIRST thing because I had a knee injury and had to limit my running. Here's what I found. The cross-training is very hard. My hip did not like it. I did not like running hard all the time. My body didn't like it. The best I ever felt was after I spent 6 weeks running only easy anywhere from 45 minutes to 2-1/2 hours per day. I built my mileage over 50. I felt strong and healthy. Now, I play hockey on Mondays and don't run on that day. Does that cause regression. Again, I have no frickin' clue. Probably not because when I run and skate on the same day, the hip yells and I end up "training" on the couch. I run 6 days/week now. It's all easy. I do hills on Tuesday for strength. I'll start sprinkling in some marathon pace and threshold and all that fun stuff, but it'll still be lots of easy and I'd rather run for 30 minutes than bike for 45 (or whatever the equivalent is). All I know is what works for me. I also know that competitive runners don't take days off and they are guided by much smarter people than me. (I like to look at the training logs of the Hanson bros -- not the slapshot guys).
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