Forums >General Running>In Praise of the Saucony Endorphin Pro - PR Achieved.
I may have spoken too soon. My PR with the Endorphin Pros was on Sunday. I did a 10K run on Tuesday with not a single issue. Due to unusual circumstances, I only ran again today (Saturday) and wore the same shoes as I did on Tuesday (Nike React Infinity). I got about 2.5 miles into the same course as I ran on Tuesday and my calves started really hurting. I tried to keep going even stretching them and walking for a bit. I was able to jog a bit more but then my calves totally seized up on me and I had to hobble home for the last 1.5 miles. Now I can't even walk. I can only assume it was the carbon plated Pros that messed up my calves because others have mentioned calf issues from those shoes. But why the delay? I ran 2 days later with no problems but 6 days later and complete shutdown of my calves?!!
I may have spoken too soon.
My PR with the Endorphin Pros was on Sunday.
I did a 10K run on Tuesday with not a single issue.
Due to unusual circumstances, I only ran again today (Saturday) and wore the same shoes as I did on Tuesday (Nike React Infinity). I got about 2.5 miles into the same course as I ran on Tuesday and my calves started really hurting. I tried to keep going even stretching them and walking for a bit. I was able to jog a bit more but then my calves totally seized up on me and I had to hobble home for the last 1.5 miles. Now I can't even walk.
I can only assume it was the carbon plated Pros that messed up my calves because others have mentioned calf issues from those shoes. But why the delay? I ran 2 days later with no problems but 6 days later and complete shutdown of my calves?!!
DOMS
It's like after the first workout in spikes of the season!
Maybe the rigid shoes cause the calves to work harder. Also possibly because you were running faster (up on your toes more) than any recent runs. You'll adapt to it, it's just different use of the muscles.
60-64 age group - University of Oregon alumni - Irreverent and Annoying
DOMS It's like after the first workout in spikes of the season! Maybe the rigid shoes cause the calves to work harder. Also possibly because you were running faster (up on your toes more) than any recent runs. You'll adapt to it, it's just different use of the muscles.
I read somewhere to be less concerned about real injury if the symptoms are on both legs. In my case, both calves hurt equally (and severely) and it could very well be what you are saying. I'm still shocked at the lack of symptoms with a run 2 days later and I was walking fine right up until today's run.
I used to get DOMS on my quads when I was exclusively a cyclist and then would go for a hike with some vertical. However, I'd wake up the next morning with my quads really hurting. There wasn't a delay beyond that. It would sometimes take a week for them to feel right again. So, I guess if I'm having DOMS in my calves right now, I should prepare for a week of discomfort.
I have run even faster in my Speeds and not had this issue AT ALL. If it was the Pros, it must be that the carbon plate was that much harder than the nylon plate to cause such a reaction. Now I don't know if I'll ever run in the Pros again. If so, it would have to be a shorter run at an easier pace to start.
Personal Records:
5K - 20:07 ran in September 2021 (The second half split during the 10K run listed below.)
10K - 41:10 ran in September 2021
8 miles - 56:15 ran in November 2021
Half Marathon - 1:39:06 ran in September 2020
as I get older, I find DOMS sets in later and later! when I was young and fit it would be the very next morning, now it's a 2-3 day delay sometimes.
If it's DOMS you'll get used to those shoes. DOMS sets in, for me, the second day after I stress muscles in a way they are not yet trained for. Third day is better, fourth day it's gone.
Mmmm Bop
I read somewhere to be less concerned about real injury if the symptoms are on both legs. In my case, both calves hurt equally (and severely) and it could very well be what you are saying. I'm still shocked at the lack of symptoms with a run 2 days later and I was walking fine right up until today's run. I used to get DOMS on my quads when I was exclusively a cyclist and then would go for a hike with some vertical. However, I'd wake up the next morning with my quads really hurting. There wasn't a delay beyond that. It would sometimes take a week for them to feel right again. So, I guess if I'm having DOMS in my calves right now, I should prepare for a week of discomfort. I have run even faster in my Speeds and not had this issue AT ALL. If it was the Pros, it must be that the carbon plate was that much harder than the nylon plate to cause such a reaction. Now I don't know if I'll ever run in the Pros again. If so, it would have to be a shorter run at an easier pace to start.
I had a look at your log and noticed that you ran a 6.4 mile race at 6:57 pace the previous week (I assume in the Speeds?) I’ve never raced in the Pros so can’t give you any feedback on them, but I’d be wary of running 2 races in the space of a week unless you’re a high mileage runner! And congrats on the PR. 👍
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Yes, the first race-paced effort was in the Speeds and that course had far more vertical. You could be right. I knew there could be a risk with two all-out efforts in a comparatively short period of time but I'm still baffled at running two days later with no issues and only have a problem now - 6 days later.
Yep, I usually get DOMS 2 days after a race so that is a bit weird. Maybe stick to the Speeds as it’s a great tempo shoe and obviously a good race shoe for you as well.
SMART Approach
You are not a beginner. 6 days after your Sunday race you are likely fully recovered or recovered enough. Tues run was faster than a recovery run but with off days after and no concerns with calves Sun and Tue I would look at it as a fluke thing or how about the Nike shoes you ran in the last 2 times including when pain started? Doesn't it sound strange to blame a run 6 days ago for discomfort a week later? It's not DOMS unless you feel you are over trained overall.
Run Coach. Recovery Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training, Coaching & Recovery
Structured Marathon Adaptive Recovery Training
Safe Muscle Activation Recovery Technique
www.smartapproachtraining.com
I've had those Nikes for quite a while and have done many runs in them without an issue. I even sometimes use them if I feel a niggle of some type because I have found them gentle on my body.
I don't feel overtrained at all. I guess the two race-paced efforts on consecutive Sundays must have been too much but I thought the consequences would have been felt on the Tuesday run. It's a mystery which makes it more frustrating because I have less to go on to avoid such a thing in the future. Taking 4 complete days off (Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday) should have been enough recovery as far as I can see but maybe not... Hopefully my calves will just start feeling better without enough rest. I still have trouble walking today.
Thanks for the feedback.
ETA: I do at least 5 different strength exercises for my legs per week but I haven't been specifically doing any for my calves. This is partially because I've never had a problem before this with them and also because I've been afraid to mess up my Achilles by doing the calf exercises. I think this may need to change. Once my calves recover, I'll have to look up some good calf exercise. I'd assume the regular calf raise with allowing the heel do go beneath the plane of your foot and then raising it all the way up would be the best one.
I returned the Endorphin Pros. This is the first pair of running shoes that I've ever returned. I did some more research and others have had similar issues with this shoe to the point where they would never wear them again. It's possible that I could have eventually adapted but it's not a risk that's worth it to me. I value my running way too much to be messing around with this type of shoe.
My best guess as to what happened was that I really messed my calves up on the 8 mile time trial but the full extent of the damage wasn't realized until my second run after that. It's hard to figure but there must have been some kind of delay and it took a second run for the breakdown to occur.
Waltons ThreadLord
Jason - sorry the shoes didn't work out for you.
I have some of the same concerns expressed elsewhere on this thread. I would only wear them on a smooth surface due to the concerns about how easy it is to roll an ankle in them. Similarly, my foot seems to slide around in them a bit, so I'd avoid a route that requires too much hard cornering, or a race with too many people to maneuver around. That said, I did like them in the 5-mile race I ran last weekend. I'm not sure they made me feel faster so much as I felt I was using less energy to maintain my speed and they gave me a little pep when I wanted a kick for the last few hundred yards of the race. They're far from perfect, but they're definitely among the better $100 shoes I've worn. I would have been unhappy had I spent $200 on them.
5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:55 (11/23); 10k 49:24 (10/22); 10M 1:29:33 (2/24); Half 1:48:32 (10/22); Marathon 4:29:58 (11/23)Upcoming races: Clinton Country Run 15k, 4/27; Running is Back 10k, 5/12
I returned the Endorphin Pros. This is the first pair of running shoes that I've ever returned. I did some more research and others have had similar issues with this shoe to the point where they would never wear them again. It's possible that I could have eventually adapted but it's not a risk that's worth it to me. I value my running way too much to be messing around with this type of shoe. My best guess as to what happened was that I really messed my calves up on the 8 mile time trial but the full extent of the damage wasn't realized until my second run after that. It's hard to figure but there must have been some kind of delay and it took a second run for the breakdown to occur.
You should have given them another chance! As you mention, it was probably compounding; stressing the muscles again BEFORE soreness set in from the first run. Like a lot of race shoes, they should only be used for races and maybe once every other week for race-pace workouts.
JasonB176, what type of shoes do you usually wear? I usually wear Mizuno Wave Riders with a 12mm drop. The Saucony's have an 8mm drop. For me, I need to ease into the different ones or I wind up with calf tightness and all that fun stuff.
I wear shoes with anywhere from a 5-10mm drop. The Pros had an 8 and the Nikes also an 8 so it was not due to a new drop level. However, I just wasn't prepared for the difference of the carbon plate. I had no issues with all-out runs using a nylon plate so I incorrectly assumed that I could just proceed with the carbon plate. In hindsight, I should have done an easier shorter run rather than an all-out 8 mile time trial as my first run.
It's been 5 days now and I can walk normally albeit with a little discomfort in the calves. I don't dare try running yet. I'm hoping in a few more days to try a slow jog and see what happens.
I don't regret returning the Pros. I can't take any chances and the nylon plate Speed I think produces almost the same level of performance with much less injury risk.
Update:
First off, kudos to Running Warehouse for crediting my return in full despite the obvious wear brought on by an 8 mile all-out trail run.
Today was the first day I could walk with no pain in either calf. I decided to just try a run. I started very slowly, purposely heel striking more to place less stress on the calves, and seemed to be okay. I probably overdid it somewhat running a total of 5.32 miles. My right calf was pretty much fine but I did have some twinges/pain in my left calf on and off starting at mile 2. I ran using my Bondi 6's for maximum protection.
My pace was slow (9:14/mile) so hopefully I didn't do any further damage despite the pain in my left calf right now. The pain is nowhere near what I felt 6 days ago when both calves just gave out so I'm hopeful that I didn't set myself back too badly.