Forums >Racing>Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023
Speaking from experience, think at least twice before giving up competitive running. I have before and after pictures in the form of drivers licenses and what I looked like before kind of disturbs me. I am much happier and healthier now and I am the best version of myself when running competitively.
The man speaks the truth here! I’m not sure I was ever “competitive” and certainly never had the times posted but it has taken far more effort,miles and perseverance to get back near where I peaked than it got to that peak.
5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015)
Hi, I’m Dave, 57, in the Seattle area. Late in life start at this thing. Not only did I not run competitively in high school, but whenever we had to run the mile in gym class, I’d get a doctor’s note excusing me because of my asthma. I’ve come a ways since then. I didn’t start running regularly till my mid-40s; ran my first half marathon in spring 2012 at age 47, and my first marathon that fall. I’ve now run 18. Marathons are generally my main goal races, but I enjoy squeezing in 5k/10k/HM during/between cycles.First half of 2022 was a disaster for me, with injuries and illness. But in the second half I ran a 10k PR (41:30), followed by a huge marathon PR at Chicago (3:17:48, with a 2 min negative split). 2023 goals:
Annual mileage history:
Dave
RIP Milkman
Fishy - love the dedication for this year. I've said this like 5 times at this point, but glad you're around here!
Dave - well shit, you've set the bar high with a new PR in 3 distances at age 57!
Joshwolf - now is your time to go from being a lurker to a thread participant. I think you've passed the hazing period to be an official competitive jerk
mmerkle - I always forget you had such wheels a few years back (the 1:18 half especially). What are your plans this spring? I think we mentioned this after your last cycle, but you have to race more. You put so much pressure on these marathons, and things can always go awry. There's absolutely no reason with your recent training that you can't take a crack at another sub 1:20 half this year.
I didn't answer you on the old thread but will here: does JD really recommend 24 weeks in the 4th edition? That is just crazy. I don't know anyone that could succeed with that sustained effort. You either get injured (me), lose motivation, or peak too early (not picking on Steve, but rather his coach, in that was by far his coaches biggest mistake and Steve paid the price by peaking 2-3 weeks too early before the taper). You will do much better by really trying to understand what JD is trying to get at in his training plans and then create your own. I still use a lot of his workouts, but by my 3rd marathon cycle, I was starting to do it the way I thought made more sense for my style.
Here is a simple example: in the 3rd edition, his FIRST workout is a 13 mile continuous workout of 6 @ MP, 1 @ LT, 6 @ MP. In no universe, even in my best shape, could I run that workout 18 weeks out from a marathon. That's something I would try in that key period of 4-6 weeks out from the marathon. So I don't even do that. His plans are really built for the super elite who are already running 100+ MPW, but then he tried to adapt it down for us mortals. It doesn't work.
This is especially true given you've done two very long marathon cycles if my memory is correct. You have nothing to lose this cycle. I would try what many of us do here: shorten the marathon cycle (I like 15 weeks, but 12-18 is reasonable), and use the period before that to either put up a huge base of easy miles plus a LT run here and there, or do a 5K/10K cycle. I like the latter, but many people like the big base.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
RP I'm gonna try to transition things over to this thread. NCR is the marathon I just did on 11/26, it's a low key one in Maryland on a rail trail, out and back.
Dave Sick mileage, I feel like you're a very quiet high mileage guy.
JMac I'm fairly certain I have either the first or second edition, came out in 98. I grabbed it for like 3 or 5 bucks at packet pickup. I am interested in trying his "Plan B" since it has more speed work, and I feel that I am someone who needs, and enjoys, speedwork.
I agree, I should race more and that's a goal of mine. Sometimes I get a bit confused as to how to incorporate them into training, maybe we can chat about it? The half marathon is my favorite distance and I'd like to find at least one this year. I think sub 1:20 would take a good day with some tapering before, but doable, at least in the Fall it might be.
Spring: Ok so I'm becoming worried this is a bad idea, but I wanted to run the Twilight series again this summer, so I've been considering a return to the Salisbury marathon, which is on April 1st. So that gives me 12 weeks from now pretty much. I think next week I can manage around 50 miles, this week will be about 45. Then I think I can be back in the 60's within a couple weeks if I don't get sick or hurt obviously. Then back to 70's, I'd like at least 4 if not 5 or 6 weeks averaging 70 ish.
Part of me thinks this isn't enough time. I need to do more homework looking for other marathons in mid to late April, since I could probably still recover in time for the series, but I did like Salisbury overall and if I went back I would be familiar with the course which should help. Thoughts on this?
For what it's worth, high mileage is feeling like less of a big deal. I can feel a difference between now and when I first joined this thread not quite a year ago. I almost dare say a big difference.
Problem Child
Why not work towards a half in April, then look towards fall to get in a full marathon?
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Merk- Bold prediction here...You will crush sub 3 this year. At the risk of disagreeing with RP (I know we never do that on this thread) My vote would be to run a marathon in April. With your base 12 weeks is enough to get some good gains but the biggest gain will be running the distance again. The more you race the marathon the more you learn what "not to do". Take it from an old bastard like me you will learn and gain from every race even (especially)the ones that don't go as planned!
JMac- thanks, I will try to run (and post) more consistently this year. Gonna work on the bio today!
Comander- Do we put 5Ks on the race calendar? Normally I wouldn't even ask as a 5K is "junk miles" to a true competitive jerk but this one is a PR attempt.
mmerkle - I agree with this. You get better at marathoning by marathoning. But your main question was racing on 4/1 vs late April. I think 4/1 is kind of a quick turnaround from 11/26. You’ll be fine, but might wish you had another month. The flipside is that by late April, things will be getting warm. especially where you live. (If you share how far you’re willing to travel, I’m sure people here can make some recommendations.) Personally, I’d rather run undertrained in cool weather than better trained in warm weather. Either way, you might look at a spring race as a stepping stone, and take the moon shot in the fall—that’s when the better racing usually is anyway. This whole paragraph is assuming you want to focus on marathons. If the half or any other distance is more important, then completely blow off the spring race. Marathon recovery time can be very unpredictable.
One factor that I don’t think has too much of an impact is course familiarity. But what do I know, I’ve never run the same marathon course twice, lol.
Cobra Commander Keen
Fishy - What's the race? I have no issue putting a PR attempt 5k on the board.
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Chilly Willy 5K on 1/1/22. Hopefully you all will track me sub 19:18 goal........
Dave- Really nice consistent miles. Love to see another "experienced" runner shooting for PRs. I agree the half is ready to fall!
Thanks for the input Fishy and Dave. I can't tell if the marathon will be my focus. I like the idea of just being good at 10k - marathon.
Also in my humble opinion Fishy, almost any PR attempt is not junk miles and should be paid attention to.
To answer RP. I have thought about this. But I'll give you a good answer and a bad answer. The good answer is I like training for and running marathons. Especially training, actually. I love the chase. I feel like I'm starting to get the hang of it, and I like the idea of 2 marathons a year. I don't think that's a lot to ask for, there are people even on here who run much more than 2 a year. So why can't I?
The bad answer? I have declared war on the 3 hour barrier. It's personal now. I'm tired of saying 3 something. Just like in HS I got tired of saying 5 something for the mile. But this is much worse because it's been years. It's driving me NUTS. More than it probably should. What if I DO wait until Fall, and then don't break 3 for that one? Then 2023 will be yet another year gone by that I didn't break 3.
I am worried about too many cycles robbing me of speed, but remember I plan to focus on speed over the summer like I did last summer, and I do tend to throw some decently quick intervals in my marathon training.
I'm not willing to travel much farther than the distance Salisbury is, to be honest. That's about a 2.5 hour drive. The idea of flying somewhere during the semester kind of stresses me out. I might consider, but I'm very apprehensive about it.
mmerkle - you are young and have plenty of time. Especially when it comes to building speed over marathon distance. But I understand being anxious—once you have a goal in your head you want to get after it. Certainly two marathons per year gives you more shots at it; any more can be counterproductive imho.
FindMyMarathon.com is my go-to marathon search tool, I did some hunting. Another option just a bit farther than Salisbury is Coastal Delaware in Rehoboth Beach. Looks like a fast course and is on 4/16 so gives you a couple extra weeks. Two options at the end of the month: Gettysburg 4/30 and Potomac River Run 5/1. Both are small races, ~150 finishers, not sure if that’s a pro or con for you.
Hey everyone, my name is Ryan and I've been using RunningAhead since college so it holds a lot of great reflections and data about my running life, in fact, I have logs dating back to my sophomore year of high school (but who knows how accurate that is since it was before GPS watches were common). I'm 31 years old and live in Boulder, Colorado. My main focus is the marathon but I love racing and competing in many different distances, sadly I'm not as good at other events as I am at the marathon. I don't really post on the boards very often but have loved to read about other people's journeys, so this is a bit of a disclaimer that I may be inconsistent about posting, but will always have training uploaded to my log.
My yearly mileage:
2007: 514 (started in July)
2008: 1368
2009: 2291
2010: 2380
2011: 3935
2012: 4322
2013: 4503
2014: 4583
2015: 4410
2016: 3434 (missed training due to Achilles injury)
2017: 5116
2018: 5331
2019: 5284
2020: 4657
2021: 2239 (sacral stress injury/RED-S/kidney stones)
2022: 4328
I've always been a higher mileage guy, I guess my talent is in being able to tolerate a lot of volume. I generally have 2-3 workouts a week (including long run) and when I'm in more focused periods of training I run twice per day about 5 days per week. When I was training on my own I was running 140-150 mpw at my peak with two workouts per week. Now that I've joined a group, my mileage has been pulled back but the intensity is something that I would not be able to replicate without teammates.
I ran at North Central College, a small D3 school in Naperville, IL, and since graduation, I qualified for the 2020 and 2024 Olympic Trials Marathon. I also coached for 4 years at a couple of different schools before the pandemic and now coach a group of post-collegiates here in Boulder. My current PBs are 14:34 for 5k (14:41 on the road), 29:51 in the 10k, 1:04:52 for the half, and 2:15:22 for the marathon; in a past life I was an All-American steeplechaser, but that is far behind me. My most recent race was a 2:16:09 at CIM, which I was pretty satisfied with after missing a lot of time in 2021 and bombing at Grandma's Marathon in my previous attempt at the distance (2:25). I'm preparing for the Marathon Trials in 2024 so this upcoming year will be about setting up good blocks of training to perform my best at that race. I am currently planning on running the half at Project 13.1 (hosted by Trials of Miles) in NY, the USATF 25k Champs in Grand Rapids, MI in May, and finishing out the spring with Grandma's Marathon.
I look forward to reading about everyone else!
Happy Training!
mmerkle - you are young and have plenty of time. Especially when it comes to building speed over marathon distance. But I understand being anxious—once you have a goal in your head you want to get after it. Certainly two marathons per year gives you more shots at it; any more can be counterproductive imho. FindMyMarathon.com is my go-to marathon search tool, I did some hunting. Another option just a bit farther than Salisbury is Coastal Delaware in Rehoboth Beach. Looks like a fast course and is on 4/16 so gives you a couple extra weeks. Two options at the end of the month: Gettysburg 4/30 and Potomac River Run 5/1. Both are small races, ~150 finishers, not sure if that’s a pro or con for you.
Gettysburg is really hilly. Salisbury and Coastal Delaware are almost totally flat. May gets risky for long races here, way bigger chance of hot vs cold.
Ryan - I remember you from the 20xx in 20xx game… you were always the one laying down some crazy fast times in races. I knew that I’d have a shot at getting a race point for my team in any given week… unless you were also racing!
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
@Marky_Mark those games were a lot of fun but I felt like I needed to sandbag my yearly mileage to keep my team competitive. 100 mpw looks good until it's only like 105% of the goal lol