Fix that Fade (Read 2162 times)

    Please  tell me if this is a case of going out too fast or if my aerobic fitness sucks, probably a bit of both.  The courses here in Charlotte tend to be a bit downhill at the start, with rollers in the middle and more uphill than downhill the last couple of miles 




    It's not a one time deal, same with my previous HM and the one before that, a general 20-30 sec/mile fade every 4 miles.




    This one with no downhill start and uphill finish is a bit more even, but still a fade none the less.



      For races 10k and up I think that more or less constant pace is the best strategy. You may not know what you're capable of on the day, but if you find you're slowing significantly in the second half then probably it means you went out too fast for the shape you're in. Of course hills complicate things a bit..


      But if I were you I'd make a deliberate effort to hold back a bit in the first half.

      As far as getting faster goes... more miles, lose weight (if you have any excess to lose), maybe some tempo runs. A workout I like doing (normally at the track but it doesn't need to be) is 5km easy to warmup then maybe 8km-10km at HM pace (or perhaps just slightly faster) and a few km easy to cooldown. If you can nail those with killing yourself then it's a good confidence builder. If that feels like it's too hard, then the pace is probably a bit fast for you and you need to back off a little.


      No doubt someone will be along in a sec with a different opinion Smile

      Lazy idiot

        I'm not a genius when it comes to decoding this stuff, so when you get better responses later I won't be offended if you think I'm completely wacky.


        If I just look at the mileage factor, I'd say you should be able to trounce your current PR. 


        Your last 6 weeks-ish of long runs all seem to be the same (14 miles, roughly 9:30 pace), and most of your workouts seem to vary between 9:15-10:00 average pace (some have Garmin import, some don't, so I don't know the "whole" picture). 


        It looks like you rarely if ever run any faster than 9:00/mile pace.  While I think you can train mostly at 9:30 pace and race a HM at 7:30 pace (if only because in my experiment of one I've done it), I think you probably do need to add in faster running occassionally.  If you don't ever run fast, it's probably difficult to do it for an extended period of time. 


        The majority of my runs were in the 9:30/mile range, but I had tempo runs, fartleks, long runs with fast finishes (varying from 2-4 miles of fast running at the end of a run), hill workouts, etc.  I think adding in some faster varieties of runs will enable you to maintain a faster pace.  As it is now, you're trying to run faster for 13 miles than you almost ever do in training.  That's gotta get tough at mile 8-9, as you find.


        I think if you keep the mileage level where you're at now and add in some faster paced workouts, you'd be quite surprised at what you find is possible on race day.


        Good luck!

        Tick tock

          Drew, I think you are very smart, will try that for the next 4 weeks and try again on April  16.    I do vary my pace a bit on my mid week runs, but you're right, I need to try holding that faster pace for an extended 4-5 mile stretch.

          Lazy idiot

            Drew, I think you are very smart, will try that for the next 4 weeks and try again on April  16.    I do vary my pace a bit on my mid week runs, but you're right, I need to try holding that faster pace for an extended 4-5 mile stretch.


            I'd work up to those extended workouts.  My coach has my tempo runs topping out at about 20 minutes (within a 6-8 mile run) lately, which at sub-10k pace is not quite 3 miles for me.


            But I definitely think the faster workouts will be key.

            Tick tock

            Demon of Bad Decisions

              Fix this fade.


              I want to do it because I want to do it.  -Amelia Earhart


                I doubt if your "aerobic fitness sucks".


                My thoughts as a relative newbie who has been jogging a reasonable amount of easy miles (at least by my standard). I think my priorities for improvement are:


                Tempo runs - partly for the physical benefit, but just as importantly to better cope mentally with the discomfort that I should expect when racing, especially shorter distances. 


                Core strength - lugging this long body around my form deteriorates when I'm tired and particularly going up hills.


                Weight - a big one for me

                The process is the goal.

                Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call Destiny.


                  Kid N Play =/= Kris Kross =/=Christopher Cross


                  Time to ride like the wind.




                    Drew, I think you are very smart, will try that for the next 4 weeks and try again on April  16.    I do vary my pace a bit on my mid week runs, but you're right, I need to try holding that faster pace for an extended 4-5 mile stretch.


                    I think it's good to vary the tempo workouts. Some weeks do continuous runs, some weeks do tempo intervals (perhaps about 6 minutes or 1 mile) with short recovery jogs. McMillan calls these Cruise Intervals. 

                      Funny, but I don't get it.



                      Fix this fade.


                      Prince of Fatness

                        These workouts helped me bring my HM PR down....


                        • 45 minute tempo a little slower than HM effort
                        • 6 x 4 minutes 10K effort with 90 second jogs
                        • 5 x 5 minutes 10K effort with 90 second jogs
                        • Include HM effort running in long runs, toward the end of them


                          A couple of things:


                          Tempo runs: +1 to the idea of tempo runs.  My coach had me do a 4mi tempo or two, then bump them to 6mi.  The pace itself wasn't overwhelming, but I came away knowing there'd been some good mental training.


                          Progression runs: maybe every other long run or so?  Nice way to get yourself in the mental/physical habit of pushing more in the latter stages of a longer outing.

                          "I want you to pray as if everything depends on it, but I want you to prepare yourself as if everything depends on you."

                          -- Dick LeBeau

                          On the road again...

                            HF - you and I are in a very similar place, so here's my experience.  I, too, have experienced that late race fade, and when I lamented about it, tempos were what was suggested to me, as well (thanks, L-Train).  Only race I have to back up the work right now is an 8k which I ran at a much quicker pace than I'd have ever thought I'd run (somewhere around 7:50 I think).  Not blazing yet, but after almost 3 years of running I was starting to think I'd never see a 7 in front of my pace.


                            You and I are running similar mileage, and I won't be able to test the success of the tempo runs until my HM in 2 weeks, but I'm in a much better place mentally than I ever was, and just a quick glance at my HR at faster paces now vs slower paces before the tempo runs and I can see huge progress.  Like i said, we'll know more in 2 weeks, but the tempo runs (esp when they include hills, which isn't hard to find where we live) have helped me tremendously so far.

                            I have a love/hate relationship with running. I do it, but sometimes I love to hate it.

                            L Train

                              Agree with all who talked about long tempos, though looking at my log curious to see you would be hard pressed to find many true tempo runs.  For longer race training I've sort of focused on (all of which I've stolen):


                              • alternating HM pace and MP runs on Thursdays, lengthening from 5-6 miles, going all the way to 10-12 at MP.
                              • 8 x 800s on Tuesdays at a little under 5K pace with 90 secs rest as part of a 10+ mile run.  I even have tried 2 x 8 x 800 because I was a bad boy but couldn't get it done.
                              • 4 x 1 mile or 5 x 1 mile at 5k-10k pace
                              • progression runs, fast finish long runs or MP miles in my long runs every other one or so.   


                              I think all of the above have helped me with my own fading issues, as I have had the same problem of not being able to hold pace. 


                              L Train

                                Fix this fade.


                                They need to bring sexy back.