2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 448 times)

JMac11


Milkman

    Marby - does your race start at 6 am? That's so nice if so, keeps the direct sun out and makes 50s much better

     

    RP - nice photos. Not being as sore is definitely a sign you keep getting stronger. Go run an ultra, you do seem to get better as distance gets longer, but you are not done at the marathon distance. You just missed out on the NYC qualifying time of 2:55:00 (unless you will be 40 on Nov 6, 2022, then you're in at 2:57!)

     

    Me - My doctor hasn't 100% cleared me yet, but said that 4-6 week rest is usually what is needed for a stress reaction vs. 8-12 for a stress fracture. I was at 5 weeks rest this past Monday (if you don't include those 2 runs I tried to start again before CIM but shut down). I have passed most other tests: hop test is 0 pain, and I was able to walk 30+ minutes with 0 pain. So I decided to start running. My first 2 mile run on Sunday felt great: 0 pain, nothing weird. Last night I went for 3 miles and it did feel a little weird, but I wouldn't say painful. I'm going to hold at 3 miles for the foreseeable future as I don't want to push it. That's already considered aggressive as most plans do walk/run, but I think those are really for stress fractures or people who were injured at much lower mileage. I can't imagine pros running 120+ MPW who take 4-6 weeks off for a stress reaction are doing walk/run plans for 4 straight weeks.

     

    We'll have to see how it feels the rest of this week. If we were closer to 6+ weeks of full rest, I'd definitely push through this, but given I came back a little early, I don't want to blow up and have to shut it down for another 4 weeks.

     

    Thanks to DW for a good article though on whether it's phantom pain or not. Always hard to judge coming back from a stress injury on a bone.

    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

     

    Next Race: Grandma's Marathon (6/18)

    Running Problem


    Problem Child

      JMac The NYC qualifier got me in the feels. It very much reminds me of Revel Mt. Charleston. Running a 3:05:26 was probably the greatest thing in my running career to happen, with running a 2:59:07 being second, and actually being close enough to set a 2:55 as an actual realistic goal is crazy to me. I just don't know if running 2:54:59 is a guaranteed entry like Chicago, or if it just gets me a lottery ticket like Boston. My wife asked me which one of the majors was the hardest to get into. So far it's New York and PERHAPS I should go for it at CIM 2022. It might be easier than waiting for that 40-40 age group.

      As for doing an ultra, I believe the most logical advice I've received about looking at races the week after a race is to literally NOT do it. Here is why.....One Day in Auburn is an ultra just a few hours away. I could go back to a few long runs, and run the entire thing at a casual "just finish" pace. It's easy to bail if I'm having a bad day, and I have a friend doing it as well so POSSIBLY I could carpool with him home around 1 or 2am Sunday Morning.

      Jed Smith is a 4.85 mile loop around the American River in Sacramento. I could probably do this like commanderkeen did his 42ish mile ultra (mostly back country dirt roads) at an 8:30/mi pace. Jed Smith is February 5, so other than having to train in some cold I could roll with the endurance I currently have and really not need to do much more than maybe another 20 miler in mid January when it's "freezing fucking cold in the fucking morning."

      Oakland Marathon. It's in March and pretty flat. Start training for a 2:54:59 just off off CIM, hope for another amazing day, and get an NYC qualifier for 2023. Run Boston in April 2023, then NYC in November 2023, and MAYBE jog/fun run/pace a friend CIM 2023.

      Tahoe Rim Trail 50 miler. July 17. Full of hill climbs and descents. Something like 10,000 ft of gain. Elevation starts around 5,000 ft and climbs REAL QUICK. It's in town, I could possibly round up a pacer, I know someone else signing up for it and people who have done it, and the course has lots of trees since it is in the Sierra Nevadas (no, not the beer, and apparently it isn't pronounced 'nuh-VAH-duh').

       

      All of the above sounds logical. Right now. I'm looking at the hills the Tahoe Rim Trail is on right now. I could train on the course, dad life permitting, as much as I desired. I might could even find trail runners for long training runs to learn from. Not much will be going on in winter 2021-22 as far as family trips or camping so training for anything before April would ASSUMEDLY be easier. This is the weirdest high from a race I've ever had. It's like "yeah go for it because you're in such great shape" mixed with "doing things other than running and making everything about PRs and the next goal race makes the running/training more focused and serious."

       

      As for you and the pain, do what you can and just be mindful of the pain. Something I've come to respect recently with the 9-11 minute miles I've been running is the amount of time involved. I've always tried to compare myself to faster runners, while telling slower runners not to look at my distance. It's time I get some perspective on what it's like to run for 30 minutes at a pace making a half marathon over 2 hours. Many different struggles, and don't be shocked if you feel like everyone sees you as a super fast runner trying to immitate a slow runner in a disrespectful way. Recently I felt like that and said "this just reminds me I never know how far that other person has been running when it looks like their struggling." There are many reasons the pros are the pros and one of them is they can do things we cannot. Go enjoy Christmas, New Years, and dad life. Maybe take a cab to the end of one of your longer 22 mile runs and jog it to bring back memories of training this summer drinking 3 gallons of water and still being dehydrated.

       

      Marby I don't think it's a superpower. It's almost a curse, but I won't let it be a negativity. By "it" I mean the ability to NOT realized how challenging the goal ahead of me is and go after it with absolutely no regard for the negative outcomes (*insert ain't nobody got time for dat gif here*.  Back in 2018 or 2019 when I was training for my first sub 3 I said "checker or wreckers" a lot. Fortunately, or unfortunately, it doesn't stop at just running. It can carry into personal life.

      I had a cough Saturday before CIM. I took 2 DayQuil gel tablets about 2 hours before race start. I think they last about 5 hours so I figured I'd be good until the end of the race. Only time I seemed to need to cough was after I'd drank something in the later miles, and even then it was more of a throat clearing cough than a "folding over because my chest aches so much" cough. Best of luck mate.

      Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

      VDOT 54.9

      5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

      SteveChCh


      Hot Weather Complainer

        Good luck Marby.  A 6am start makes a December race in Melbourne slightly better.  26C is actually a pretty reasonable forecast for the time of year, and hopefully it takes a while to warm up although the sun will be pretty high already at 6am.  My coach is pacing someone to a 3:30 so I'll be tracking both of you.  Hopefully there's no carnage up St Kilda Road and around the Botanical Gardens like usual in warmer conditions (2018 I think?).  It's hard to beat running on to the MCG as a finish to a race.

        Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

        Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

        Race plan:  Wellington Half Marathon June 19, 2022 (likely marathon tempo session). Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

        CommanderKeen


        Aspiring Hobby Jogger

          Quick drive-by, I'll be back to address the rest of the forum shortly.

           

          RP - Absolutely epic race! Good to meet you, too.


          Cal - Well done! You probably passed me like it was nothing around mile 23 or so.


          (Very) Long Story, Short:

           

          Felt absolutely great the days before and the morning of the race. Met up with RP at gear check and chatted with him on the way to Folsom. Happened to run in to my coach and his wife in the crowd (2 of the 3 people from the OKC area I knew were running the race. What are the odds?).

           

          Planned to go out at 2:58 pace then crank it down bit by bit later on. Started just in front of the 3:00 pace group, but they caught up with me (and RP went ahead) on the first uphill. No worries here, I typically take hills a bit easier than most during races. Stayed tucked in and around the 3:00 group as I was staying right around 2:58 pace and I certainly didn't mind a big group of people to run with.

           

          Was feeling good and very controlled/under M effort and passed halfway in 1:29:10. Decided to speed up just a bit from there, but in the next mile developed a bit of a side stitch on my right side. I tried adjusting my breathing and step patterns but it kept getting just a little bit worse all the time and I had to slow down a bit - trying to ride the line between slowing enough that it wasn't much of a hindrance but still kept even sub 3 as a possibility.

           

          Mile 22 hit and like someone hit a switch my stomach completely turned sour and I had to walk - I tried running a bit but my stomach immediately told me that was a bad idea. I trudged along hoping to throw up, but couldn't even make myself. Sat down a few times and was starting to feel a bit out of it with my head swimming from time to time. After a couple miles of this I came to a very sudden realization that I was very cold. The lightest running clothes I owned were just fine for M-ish effort in the conditions, but when slogging along at less than 20 min/mi they were nowhere near adequate. A woman offered me a hoodie, which I quite gladly put on. Somewhere around mile 24 I managed to throw up first around and then in (so as to minimize splashing) the bushes in the parking lot of a Del Taco restaurant and felt much better. Despite feeling much better after having thrown up my stomach still wouldn't let me run.

           

          At some point around here (it's quite fuzzy) my coach (wearing a reindeer costume) and his wife passed me on her way to a 3:00:low finish (7:10/mi goal pace my arse). At least this time the only person I saw pass me while wearing a costume was a guy who's *almost* OTQ levels of fast, quite unlike what happened in Dallas.

           

          Insert more trudging along. Around mile 25 a volunteer offered me a space blanket, which I took and wrapped around myself. I was feeling better, but still unable to run. In the last 1/2 mile I saw a couple people doing the "100 mile ultra lean", which I've never seen during a marathon before. In the last 20 meters or so of the race I saw a guy ahead of me (clearly far worse than I was) whose legs locked up stiff toddle back and forth for a couple steps before pitching head-first into the roadway, completely unable to even catch himself. I went to try helping him up and asked if he was OK, but he didn't say a single word. Another man who seemed to be some sort of volunteer also came to help and yelled to others across the line to get a medic, but there was no response to this at all. The man who fell had busted his head open and was bleeding decently (and had the presence of mind to collect his hat as we stood him up), but this other guy and I managed to get him up and help him across the line before someone came up with a wheelchair for him.

           

          Third marathon blowup in a row (sick during Dallas, went out too fast for the conditions in Ft. Worth, don't know what caused this). I feel like I'm due for a good race!


          Did some sleuthing and found the guy who collapsed in front of me - who won his age group, unless you want to DQ him for having outside assistance.
          The guy in this finish video turned around to help the guy who collapsed - as a warning, you can see the guy stumble and collapse on the right-hand side of the video right as it starts. Not quite how I remember it, which is perhaps an indicator of my state of mind. In my memory I was much closer to the guy when he went down and I got to him much faster, and I don't remember the other guy being dressed like that at all.

          5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

           

          Upcoming Races:

           

          Wurst Race Half - 10/8

          CIM - 12/4

          Running Problem


          Problem Child

            Commanderkeen Based on your race reports, and mine, everyone knows how the "chat to Folsom" went. Your walk to the finish just looks miserable. Absolutely no joy.

             

            Kudos to the guy in the starts and stripes shirt. Not only did he cross BOTH timing mats, he was the only one who seemed to care another runner was collapsed on the course. I totally get not running back onto the course, but again, dude collapsed.

            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

            VDOT 54.9

            5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

              Keen: Thanks for making a race report; I know that can be tough when things don't go well (I'm guilty of not making one for most of my bad marathons). First of all, good on you for the sportsmanship to help out the poor guy that fell at the end. I hope that guy is ok. Regarding your experience, there's not much you can do when bad stomach problems hit, and sounds like you had some really bad ones. As others have said, your training and tune-up races all indicate you can run 2:55 and likely even faster. Just keep going after it and everything will line up eventually. You are absolutely due for and deserve a good race! I hope you're already thinking about the next marathon.

              2:52:16 (2018)

              JMac11


              Milkman

                Keen - I said a few things over in sub 1:30, but happy to talk through what works for me. If you continue to have stomach issues, I have found the biggest thing to help me to stop stitches is to take a Gas-X before each race. Only discovered this about 2 years ago, but my stiches have decreased 50%+ by doing that. I then take a Nauzene during the race if I'm nauseous, but I don't think you really need those. Worth trying. Never really thought about it before because it never felt like "gas", but it really does help.

                 

                Marby - good luck! I'm saying this early because you guys are so far into the future I never know what day it is. Your race could be over for all I know it.

                 

                RP - probably smart not to plan decisions the week after a race (I think that's DW's advice), but we can badger you more starting Sunday afternoon

                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                 

                Next Race: Grandma's Marathon (6/18)

                CommanderKeen


                Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                  Cal - If you've run Napa Valley before, could you give me some info on it? I actually looked it up just before CIM and it could make a nice anniversary trip.


                  Mikkey - Sounds like a painful finish, but congrats on leaving it all out there.


                  Dave - Well done, that's a heck of a negative split!


                  JHud - Turning around and running another marathon isn't out of the question and something I'll run past the coach.
                  The "best" options anywhere near me are on 12/31 & 1/1 - multiple flat out-and-backs, but they're very small (likely well under 100 total) and (assuming no blowups) I'd likely win either by 10-15 minutes based on past results.

                   

                  JMac - I've been trying to remember the name of the stuff you take for races and just hadn't asked yet, so thanks for that. Trying some ginger is something I'm also considering.

                  5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                   

                  Upcoming Races:

                   

                  Wurst Race Half - 10/8

                  CIM - 12/4


                  Elite Jogger

                    Keen - Sorry to hear about your issues during the race, but well done for helping that fall guy and major kudos to the stars and stripes shirt guy who ran straight back to help him. So many people just turn a blind eye these days.

                     

                    The outcome must be baffling and frustrating...but it was only a race. You've put in all the hard work with nearly 4K miles this year and that endurance will stay with you and hasn’t gone to waste. I would personally want to get out there again and put things right, especially as the fitness is there...you ran 22 at MP and should be fully recovered in a month tops.

                    5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                    Running Problem


                    Problem Child

                      JMac I guess this is the wrong time to say I've started a running streak. At least one mile per day. The goal is 1 year. It's going to be hard to do and I know it. I have trips, and projects planned where getting just one 10 minute run it might be the only run I do. I would like to run every street in the zip code, but I don't think I'll have the luxury  of working from home as much after April 2022.

                       

                      Keen if you do ginger make sure you practices with it. I had the hard candy type which wasn't tooo much fun. The sofy gunny chews seem to be a little better, and I THINK I pack some for each marathon somewhere on me as a "just in case." Whatever race you pick just let us know so we can live track you. I THOUGHT I'd been told Napa is hilly. Not CIM hilly, actually hilly. Oakland is around the same time. Not as nice of a destination, BUT possibly a better (flat) course. I believe Cal has run both, and possibly this year.

                       

                      Something I don't like about CIM is I can't find an apparral/swag webpage. I remember 2019 had one because I sent it to people who wanted to buy me christmas gifts. This year, I can't find anything. I really didn't make an effort to look at anything at the expo (it was 4:50pm when I left) and after the race I had to check out of the hotel so soon I didn't feel like walking to the finish a second time after checking out.

                       

                      Another photo of me. Saving this for later.

                      flashframe.io/photo/7566441/

                      Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                      VDOT 54.9

                      5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                      JMac11


                      Milkman

                        There is so much going on in this picture:

                         

                        - Girl on the right missed the message on the arm warmer color

                        - How does one choose the right direction of arm sleeves, because the two women with white chose opposite

                        - They even have matching sunglasses???

                        - Shorts guy: come on, wrong color orange

                        - Nice shoes by you! I'm sure you loved them during the race.

                        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                         

                        Next Race: Grandma's Marathon (6/18)

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                          Jumping in very late (sorry y'all - it's been a busy busy week).

                           

                          RP - again, just a spectacular performance, and one you should be extremely proud of.  Definitely bask in this one.  And yes, I agree with not making any major running decisions until the glow has faded slightly - as Jmac noted, I have a waiting period myself.

                           

                          DavePNW - Great performance for you as well.  I think a 5 minute negative split is actually a very good thing, and something everyone should aspire to accomplish at least once.   Running a marathon that way teaches you how good a marathon can feel at the end, and is an important step in developing the skill to execute the marathon perfectly.

                           

                          CalBears - you're a machine with the marathons (which I think you know).

                           

                          CK - once again I'm so sorry.  FWIW, I went through a sour period where I just kept having issues with marathons.  I gave up on them, then decided a year later to train for one just to give a friend a training partner.  Went into the marathon with a "what the heck" attitude, and finally had a good one again.

                           

                          In terms of trouble shooting, I'll just offer this: my belief is that when something goes wrong after mile 21-22 (generally stomach issues or cramps) the issue is almost never inability to tolerate nutrition or electrolyte imbalance - both of those would have popped up much earlier in the race.  It's an indication that you were asking more of your body than it could deliver that day (which I know sounds odd, given your training cycle) and your body shut you down.

                           

                          Just a thought.  I wonder if perhaps the hills, after training on so much flat (that's my assumption) were a bit too much.

                           

                          MIkkey - crazy story and good on you for finishing as well as you did.

                           

                          Marby-  good luck!

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            My belated week for posterity:

                             

                            67 miles running, 90 minutes pool-running, and ~1500 yards swimming.

                            M: 8 miles very easy (9:32) and upper body weights/core
                            T: 12 miles, including a track workout of 2x800, 1600, 2x800, 2x200 in 3:33, 3:27, 6:44, 3:17, 3:13 and then 45 and 46. Recoveries of 2:35-3:10 after the 800s, 5:30 recovery after the 1600, full recovery for the 200s. Followed with with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                            W: Streaming yoga and 10 miles very easy (9:31) plus drills and strides.
                            Th: 90 pool-running and upper body weights/core.
                            F: 11 miles, including a track workout of 3200, 1600, 4x200 in 13:58 (7:02/6:56), 6:41, 45, 44, 44, 45. 5 minute recovery between the 3200 and 1600. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                            Sa: 10 miles very easy (9:37), drills, and streaming yoga.
                            Sa: 15 miles progressive, split as first 5 miles averaging 9:36, next 5 miles averaging 8:23, next 5 miles averaging 7:23. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 meters recovery swimming.

                             

                            Mileage seems high, but that's only because I ran on Monday and pool-ran on Sunday, instead of the reverse.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            darkwave


                            Mother of Cats

                               

                              As for you and the pain, do what you can and just be mindful of the pain. Something I've come to respect recently with the 9-11 minute miles I've been running is the amount of time involved. I've always tried to compare myself to faster runners, while telling slower runners not to look at my distance. It's time I get some perspective on what it's like to run for 30 minutes at a pace making a half marathon over 2 hours. Many different struggles, and don't be shocked if you feel like everyone sees you as a super fast runner trying to immitate a slow runner in a disrespectful way. Recently I felt like that and said "this just reminds me I never know how far that other person has been running when it looks like their struggling."

                               

                              I have some perspective on this, since I spent a few weeks running miles paced between 11 and 13 minutes per mile.

                               

                              It is absolutely astounding how nice and encouraging people are when you are jogging 12 minute miles.  Jog 8 or 9 minute miles? You just get a kurt nod.  Jog 12 minute miles?  Everyone is your cheerleader.  I have never gotten so many "looking good!" comments.

                               

                              (I just said "thanks" instead of what was in my heart, which was "no, not looking good at all...")

                              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                               

                              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                                 

                                In terms of trouble shooting, I'll just offer this: my belief is that when something goes wrong after mile 21-22 (generally stomach issues or cramps) the issue is almost never inability to tolerate nutrition or electrolyte imbalance - both of those would have popped up much earlier in the race.  It's an indication that you were asking more of your body than it could deliver that day (which I know sounds odd, given your training cycle) and your body shut you down.

                                 

                                Just a thought.  I wonder if perhaps the hills, after training on so much flat (that's my assumption) were a bit too much.

                                 

                                Keen: Just taking a rough look at your HR data seems to support what Darkwave is saying. For miles ~10-21 you were at an average HR of around 170, which seems high for marathon HR. I see your recent 10k you averaged 168, and your 5k averaged 171. If you were at 5k-10k effort for the better part of those later 10-11 miles, that would understandably lead to things shutting down. The question then is why you were at that HR/effort level....

                                2:52:16 (2018)