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Newbie on Fueling (Read 276 times)


Rusk Runner

    To the OP, There is a book out called fueling for the marathon by Fitzgerald that is pretty good reading so far.  I dont fuel as much as I used to during training runs, but when I do marathon pace runs I ruel the same as I plan to during a race.  On a 21 mile training run I take two gels.  On a GMP run I take a gel about every 4 miles which comes out to about a gel per 32 miutes.

    I stuck with powerbar gels as the consistancy makes it easier for me to injest on the run.  I have a buddy who cant stand gels, but sprt beans he can eat like crazy.  I second the rec about just taking in sports drinks during a long training run.  For the simplicity of buying and carrying sports drinks alone it sounds like a good idea.  For me the gels and water is the only way I go.

    PRs...5K - 20:36, 4mile - 26:15, 13.1 - 1:32, 26.2 - 3:42

    Just Run!!!


    Snowdenrun

      Thanks for the input guys. And thanks Nooby for explaining WHY, that always helps me. My most recent long run was 16 miles. I didn't take in any calories(I didn't think I was going to go for that long and didn't bring anything). But, I did stop and have a sip of water from the creek (yes, the water was safe and clean) and the bit of water helped me out to finish off the run. I don't feel like I needed any sort of fuel for that run, but would have wanted to take something in if I were going to go much longer. .. or maybe I just need to get more used to the longer runs.

        Interesting...  Never heard of that; but, in the light of body's NATURAL processing, not surprising.  Thanks for the input.  I might try to look that up.  However, in a "normal" sense (as opposed to those "abnormal" ultra guys! ;o)), I guess I'm in the old school of "nothing but water--and, even then, just dump it over my body instead of drinking"; at least up to a marathon distance.  If the minute amount matters (as with protein and fat for carb processing), I would take minute amount of blood having to work extra in my stomach rather than my legs.

         

        How are things going in Alaska?  No snow storm this year? ;o)

        It's been a fairly mild year - both temps and snow, but the snow hasn't packed that well. Still haven't decided whether to do a Running Wizard program or not since I'm not sure what races I'm doing yet.

         

        <slight highjack> They've apparently had great weather on the Iditarod Trail Invitational this year with many records falling or almost falling. Blow-by-blow is on FB.  It's a 350/1000mi human-powered race that started last Sunday where runners carry their supplies in sleds on snow-covered trails over the Alaska Range - from Knik to McGrath. Some will be headed on to Nome (1000mi total). I know 4 of the 48 racers. In this environment, it's not whether you eat or drink, but when and how much. First runner got in under 5 days while a bunch of fast bikers got in under 3 days. They're expecting some runners tonight (6+ days). When you start getting into races that long, then you're getting into basic human nutrition with many things being depleted if you don't pay attention. That said, I'm not sure what the first runner in was using for fuel, but probably not traditional. (he's a really nice guy, even with the slowpokes like me)

         

        I keep things much shorter. Wink

        "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

          I guess I'm in the old school of "nothing but water--and, even then, just dump it over my body instead of drinking"; at least up to a marathon distance.  If the minute amount matters (as with protein and fat for carb processing), I would take minute amount of blood having to work extra in my stomach rather than my legs.

           

           

          I ran a marathon yesterday, and even though my training went really well, I got stuck in a low gear early on. I wonder if one of the poor choices I made was my fueling: I consumed a lot of gel early on (Hammer, apple cinnamon). My un-fueled training runs felt great, so I thought the gel would be that much more of a boost on race day. Thanks for the food for thought!

          Chloey


          Run Like a Mother

            I like raisins. They work best for me.

            FTYC


            Faster Than Your Couch!

              Hmmm...  I wonder why you feel this way...  Because of ALL the advertisements???

              "Feeling hungry" and "physiologically needing energy" are two totally different things.  You can gobble down a few heads of lettuce and you won't "feel hungry" any more but you are probably not helping your energy situation that much (some, I'm sure especially if you are really that desperate).  On the other hand, someone with 30% body fat should have plenty of energy stored in his/her body as long as he/she goes slow enough (how about one of those 60-miles-in-3-days thingie?) and you can even do that by skipping breakfast.  You'll feel very hungry and it won't be too pleasant; but you won't be needing energy physiologically.

              1) Absolutely correct about taking protein.  But you may want to specify that it's "after" the long run that you need.  Unless you see it somewhere (and if you did, I'd like to see it too), it really doesn't make much sense to me to take protein DURING the long run.  Protein is just not a good "efficient" energy source so, if you take it DURING the long run, you are actually missing out the volume you could have otherwise use for more efficient source like sugar.  On the other hand, you DO need protein to re-build all the broken-down muscle fibers perhaps particularly for those who do super long run of 3+ hours.

               

              2) I don't think it's a good idea to label; "you wouldn't need energy for the first 2 hours."  I think you mean to say that; if it's a 2 hour run or shorter, you probably wouldn't need extra energy; but if it's longer than 2-hours, you may need it..."  IF you are going beyond 2-hours, it would probably pay to start taking extra energy BEFORE the 2-hour mark--for the reason what AKTrail had pointed out.  The energy you NEED after the 2-hour mark is what you had taken BEFORE that 2-hour mark.  By the time you start to actually feel the physiological effect of depletion (not just hunger), it's probably too late and your body would need extra "energy" to absorb energy and there might actually be a down-side of it.  You take whatever it is you're taking into your stomach in the middle of a long run; and your body would have to send extra blood to pick it up from the stomach and send it around the body; that blood can be used to cool your body or whatever else to actually "run".  Better to do it while your body is fresher, little by little over a longer period of time.

               

              There are things you THINK you may need because of all the advertisements of commercial products; there are things you actually need and that's probably something you would understand if you talk to your body more and use common sense.  There is a fine line between so be careful.

               

              Nooby, obviously your idea and mine about what's a long run are a bit different. No offense intended.

               

              But please, if you quote me, do it right (see your "quote", and compare it to what I really wrote), and don't imply what I might have meant to tell the OP when I am actually talking about myself. I did not label, and did not mean to, and did not mean to imply anything about the OP, nor tell her anything in the sense that you "quoted".  No need for you to interpret to someone what I wrote, I think the OP is competent enough to do that for herself. And, if I remember correctly, she wrote: "I'd just like to hear from all of you what works or doesn't work FOR YOU...".

               

              On the protein: The body needs a certain amount of protein to stay alive. That's why the essential amino acids are called "essential", the human body requires them and cannot produce them itself, so they must be eaten as food. No doubt that the body can function for a while without protein (or any food), and run on sugars alone for a while. But, when one exercises, the need for protein is increased. For exercise up to around 2 hours, the body can use sugars to cover the energy needed, and muscle "damage" and repair don't play such a significant role that, when the body uses its own protein (canibalization of muscle tissues, including the heart muscle) to cover those "repairs" while exercising, it would do harm to itself. Even somewhat longer exercise is not harmful if no protein is not supplied through food during exercise, if protein is supplied within a reasonable timeframe, like half a day, or a day.

               

              But, if a run exceeds several hours, the need for protein becomes significant, and canibalization of muscles does decrease performance and may even lead to heart damage, as several studies of enzymes indicative of (heart) muscle damage have proven. Even just a run of marathon distance can already have this effect if the runner is undertrained. To avoid canibalization and to prevent further muscle damage (read: muscle damage caused by canibalization, not just the exercise), it is necessary to take in some protein during the run. Assuming that the OP is aiming at longer distances than she's currently running, I suggested to consider this issue.

               

              Of course eating anything else but sugars during a run decreases the blood flow to the muscles and thus decreases performance. But for long-lasting consistent performance, eating more than just sugars is necessary. The issue is just, what one considers "long".

              Your theory of "nothing but water" might hold for runs in cool or moderate temperatures for a few hours, but definitely not for long (marathon distance, and, yes, crazy ultra-long runs) runs. There are several very interesting studies available from reputable scientific sources on this topic that you might look up.

              Run for fun.


              Snowdenrun

                 

                Of course eating anything else but sugars during a run decreases the blood flow to the muscles and thus decreases performance. But for long-lasting consistent performance, eating more than just sugars is necessary. The issue is just, what one considers "long".

                Your theory of "nothing but water" might hold for runs in cool or moderate temperatures for a few hours, but definitely not for long (marathon distance, and, yes, crazy ultra-long runs) runs. There are several very interesting studies available from reputable scientific sources on this topic that you might look up. 

                 

                Do you have a handy link to these studies? I would be really interested in reading them. I honestly knew nothing, zero, zilch about fueling when I started this thread. So sugar will keep me going, but after a point(and everyone is different) other fuel sources are needed(like protein)? This idea holds true for me throughout the day. I can have a small amount of sugar(piece of chocolate) and my mental status will do a 180, but only for about 20 minutes or so. But then I get dinner and I'm good to go for hours. Obviously I know running is different than working. But I do a form of manual labor. I really just need to experiment I guess.

                FTYC


                Faster Than Your Couch!

                  I'll try to dig up some studies. May take a little while, though.

                   

                  You can also ask your question in the trail runner's forum, or the "Trailer Trash" or "Pennsylvania Trail and Ultra Runners" user groups. Lots of experience there, especially for the range of long run (HM to ultramarathon distance) you seem to be interested in.

                  Run for fun.


                  Bacon Party!

                    My thoughts on other fuel sources ...

                    Protein will help you keep your sanity (reduce mental fog and maybe perceived exertion) and night vision. It may also help with recovery.

                    Fat (esp Medium Chain Triglycerides [MCT]) will help keep the GI tract from becoming overly acidic from the carbs.

                     

                    MTA: I wouldn't bother with either of those things for marathon or less.

                    Liz

                    pace sera, sera

                    FTYC


                    Faster Than Your Couch!

                      Here's one, more to follow:

                      http://www.jacn.org/content/21/6/553.full.pdf

                       

                      And this is a whole collection of scientific papers on the topic, but you need to buy the individual papers (you can read the abstracts, though, click on "show abstracts"):

                      http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:9534079

                       

                      or, same site as above, other interesting articles:

                      http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:1798315

                      http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:22331688 (this one is also published here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22331688, and you can find more articles there, too, or do a search)

                       

                      A bit on absorption and pre-race meals:

                      http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/abd.pain.html

                       

                      And one on nutrition and fueling of top distance runners

                      (forget that it is a particular brand, you may substitute the corresponding Hammer, Clif, GU,... products as well)

                      https://firstendurance.com/2013/03/05/fueling-for-a-100-mile-running-race/

                      Run for fun.

                        +1

                         

                        Spot check, first two pages I looked at, their electrolyte page is BS, and the hydration page has a lot of BS in it.

                         

                        Yeah, okay I didn't look very hard.

                        Runners run.

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