Forums >Racing>2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread
3 months til Masters
Sounds like she is now kicked out of trials again per new usatf statement. Clown show....
2023 Goals
Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18
10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)
5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)
Sub 1:16 Half Marathon City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)
Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)
2024 Goals
Sub 2:37 Marathon
Sub 1:15 Half
Sub 34 10k
Sub 16 5k
Also there is tracking on website or grandma's marathon app.
I'm bib 1168
Best of luck DP and DW.
DP hope you get that sub 2.40. Your training has been great.
And DW 3.05 ish ? without wild boar 🐗 burrito
55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT
" If you don't use it you lose it, but if you use it, it wears out.
Somewhere in between is about right "
Mother of Cats
Based on what I've read, what happened was that USATF was going to let her run, and then World Athletics said "nope - you guys can't do that."
But again, this is all internet speculation, and not verified.
The only things we have that are really solid are the CAS's press release and the statements by Houlihan and the BTC coaches.
I REALLY want to read that decision when it comes out. I have a hunch that it will be illuminating.
***
OK Piwi, no boar. Just because you said so. (Thanks for the well wishes)
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Correct
Based on what I've read, what happened was that USATF was going to let her run, and then World Athletics said "nope - you guys can't do that." But again, this is all internet speculation, and not verified. The only things we have that are really solid are the CAS's press release and the statements by Houlihan and the BTC coaches. I REALLY want to read that decision when it comes out. I have a hunch that it will be illuminating. *** OK Piwi, no boar. Just because you said so. (Thanks for the well wishes)
Problem Child
Also there is tracking on website or grandma's marathon app. I'm bib 1168
Beat of luck man. I’ll be cheering you on from outside of cell phone range so I look forward to good news and hope it motivates me to get into training again.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
"The grounds" are the reasoning behind the decision - what evidence did they consider and why did they rule the way they did. Right now we have what they decided, but not why. The why is coming. Should also note, the "balance of probability" seems to only apply once there is a positive drug test. That drug test shifts the burden to the athlete, who then has to prove by the balance of the probabilities that there was another reason for the positive test result besides doping. The weaker standard is in favor of the athlete.
"The grounds" are the reasoning behind the decision - what evidence did they consider and why did they rule the way they did. Right now we have what they decided, but not why. The why is coming.
Should also note, the "balance of probability" seems to only apply once there is a positive drug test. That drug test shifts the burden to the athlete, who then has to prove by the balance of the probabilities that there was another reason for the positive test result besides doping. The weaker standard is in favor of the athlete.
This is where I have the support for the athlete. Due to the amount of time between when the test sample was taken, and the decision was made there is no way she could prove it was food without having a sample of that food preserved in accordance with the testing guidelines. Imagine having to keep a sample of every piece of food you ate for 6 months just to prove the one time you pop positive you’re telling the truth.
Good luck DW and DPS! Crush it.
Upcoming races: Boston
Just stopping by to wish Darkwave and DPS all the best for their races this weekend!
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
it is in the athlete's favor to have a weaker standard to meet to prove the alternate explanation. It's far easier for Houlihan's team to satisfy "a balance of the probabilities" than "beyond a reasonable doubt." (though in the end they apparently didn't hit either) I think your point is that you don't think there should be burden-shifting to begin with. My point was - given that there is burden shifting, at least she doesn't have to prove her excuse beyond a reasonable doubt. **** As I was thinking about the burden shifting, I realized how parallel this all is to speeding camera tickets. Once the camera catches you, the burden shifts to you to show why you shouldn't get fined.
it is in the athlete's favor to have a weaker standard to meet to prove the alternate explanation. It's far easier for Houlihan's team to satisfy "a balance of the probabilities" than "beyond a reasonable doubt." (though in the end they apparently didn't hit either)
I think your point is that you don't think there should be burden-shifting to begin with. My point was - given that there is burden shifting, at least she doesn't have to prove her excuse beyond a reasonable doubt.
****
As I was thinking about the burden shifting, I realized how parallel this all is to speeding camera tickets. Once the camera catches you, the burden shifts to you to show why you shouldn't get fined.
I see what you're saying. But to me, the idea that you shift the burden AND make it be that an accused would have to prove innocence beyond a reasonable doubt would be outrageous. Generally having to prove that you didn't do something, or didn't do something intentionally is extremely difficult (like they always say, prove to me that you never read XXXXXX book). So I find that making her prove that she didn't intentionally dope beyond a preponderance once the test comes back positive is about as harsh as it can get.
To me, a decent analogy is a DUI case. If there's a test that shows your blood alcohol concentration was above the legal limit, that's proof that you where driving under the influence. But it doesn't shift the burden. You're allowed to provide whatever you want to show that there is a reasonable doubt that you were not actually under the influence, despite what the test says. You don't need to introduce enough evidence to convince the jury that it's more likely than not that you were below the legal limit, just because there is a test.
This runner's defense, while it seems to be a bit meandering and unfocused, at least appears at this point to have raised some reasonable doubt as to whether she intentionally doped. But as I understand the proceeding, as soon a test comes back above the limit, she must prove a substantially higher level of doubt, to the point where it's more likely than not that she didn't dope intentionally. Seems a bit harsh, at least when you compare it to our criminal system. But again, if you want to clean up the sport, maybe that's necessary--to make it very difficult to weasel your way out of a positive test.
I agree with you that the actual decision should hopefully shed much more light on all of this. If it comes out that they didn't really believe any part of her defense, then you can forget everything I'm saying above. It won't really matter. If it comes out that they said that she made a compelling case that she didn't dope, but didn't quite meet the threshold of finding it more likely than not, that will be disappointing to learn.
What's interesting is that we (by which I mean this forum and also the larger online running community) are talking as though this should be analogous to a criminal matter. While in actuality these appear to be civil proceedings.
And that makes sense - since running is so important to us, we see a ban from competitive running as analogous to prison. But not everyone sees it that way.
Best of luck DW and DPS! Weather looks not bad; warmer than ideal but not terrible.
I'll stick to my favorite: Taco Bell bean burritos. Hopefully the nandrolone levels are low in their refried beans.
2:52:16 (2018)
dw and dps - Break a leg tomorrow!!!
good luck DW and dps!
RIP Milkman
Best of luck tomorrow! Good to see some real racing going on again in big marathons!
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)