Forums >Racing>2022 Advanced Racing Thread
Problem Child
My thoughts exactly. Steve - I'm getting all your goals mixed up! For some reason, I thought you were starting at 3:20 and then trying to work down to 3:15 if you feel good, but the real goal is 3:20. Mr Matt - 50K to me seems terrible. It's like a 4M race. All the pain of a 5K, but just tack on another 30%. Pass. I will not pursue the extra miles, and instead just get on a subway with that wonderful post race smell in a singlet. I'll fit right in with some of the vagrants on the train.
My thoughts exactly.
Steve - I'm getting all your goals mixed up! For some reason, I thought you were starting at 3:20 and then trying to work down to 3:15 if you feel good, but the real goal is 3:20.
Mr Matt - 50K to me seems terrible. It's like a 4M race. All the pain of a 5K, but just tack on another 30%. Pass.
I will not pursue the extra miles, and instead just get on a subway with that wonderful post race smell in a singlet. I'll fit right in with some of the vagrants on the train.
Is this a typo? You think a 50 kilometer race is like a 4 mile race? Am I missing something??? Is 4M the JD lingo and that’s 4 miles at Marathon pace?
i still think you could do well on a flat 50k or something like JFK. Even off of a good marathon cycle.
dave best thing you can do is find a TALL beer at dinner time, eat something good, and sleep in the van. Plan on that 4:30am run starting at 4am too. Most people run their second leg faster because of weather and motivation to get back to the van to sleep. 4:30am is really tough for me to run at without sleep.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Is this a typo? You think a 50 kilometer race is like a 4 mile race? Am I missing something??? Is 4M the JD lingo and that’s 4 miles at Marathon pace? i still think you could do well on a flat 50k or something like JFK. Even off of a good marathon cycle. dave best thing you can do is find a TALL beer at dinner time, eat something good, and sleep in the van. Plan on that 4:30am run starting at 4am too. Most people run their second leg faster because of weather and motivation to get back to the van to sleep. 4:30am is really tough for me to run at without sleep.
I think his point is 5k:4M::26.2M:50k. The shorter distance of the two pairs is the more standard one, you’re accustomed to how it feels and know when you’ll be done. The other one is just a little longer; your brain & body think you should be done after the 5k/26.2, but you still have a little bit more. So it’s just extra tough to get through that last part. I’m just guessing, I’ve never done a 4M or 50k. In fact I only ever run 5k/10k/13.1/26.2.
Strangely the 4:30 AM is the one I’m least worried about. I usually run early AM, and often on little sleep because I’m a generally shitty sleeper. Although of course not that early and not that little sleep, but it’s the closest to my normal running/racing situation.
Dave
RIP Milkman
Dave that's right. I remember darkwave, who loves running 4 mile races, saying something to the effect of "the strategy for a 4 miler is to race it like a 5K, and then try to hold on for dear life". That sounded horrible to me. I imagine a 50K has the same horrible feel to it, although different, just like a 5K and marathon pain cave are different.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
The discussion of non-standard race distances reminds me—being in Eugene, OR, for Thanksgiving and looking for a turkey trot. Turns out they have a big one, with two distance options: 2 mile and 4 mile. Wut?? You’re Track Town USA, you’ve never heard of a 5k?
Intl. correspondent
Keen - I will often botch 2 or 3 reps. I never care much about it, the way I see it so long as I was close to the desired effort I'm alright. Cause the body does not know paces, just effort.
Jmac - you could do 3 miles warm-up, 3 miles cool down. Take the train home, run extra 3 miles in the evening.
For the train ride take extra change of clothes, deodorant, perfume and baby wipes. You should look decent for the ride home.
Also, yes, Pisa is not worth a visit. There are so many other more interesting towns in Tuscany or nearby Emilia Romagna.
Piwi - LOL that image is pretty accurate
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
dave Your last run will be on 5 hours of broken sleep. It might also be getting hotter than 4am. I can understand you being concerned about the 4am run. No sun and no breakfast. The part people can't realize is sleeping in a van isn't comfortable. Sleeping in a van when people have to get in/out, grab stuff from their bag, want to chat since they just finished running, want to cheer on their runner, etc. (oh yeah, don't forget the other vans who don't care if you're sleeping because their teammate needs to be cheered on.) It becomes hard to sleep at 10pm or even midnight with this happening. For my Relay in June I woke up at the normal 5-5:30am Friday, and had my last run about an hour before you. I think I finished around 4:30am. I tried falling asleep in the van, but there were two runners after me and the van had slept while I ran so they were kind of waking up. I eventually blacked out for 45 minutes. 15 minutes into the black out a friend called me to ask where he was supposed to be going. So the third leg is just when you've not had much sleep and you might have to will yourself into competitive mode to get up that hill.
my one piece of advice is to get sleep early. It is priceless. For my Ragnar I took the road relay experience and put myself to bed at 8pm. I just went into the tent and laid there until I eventually got tired. I had a 2:30am wake up call and I already know what it is like to wake up for a second run when your body wants to sleep.
EDIT:
JMac The 50k is what you make of it. They aren't all 100% races. Mine have been miserable because my stomach went to shit due to my horrible (non-existant) race plan. For the 50 miler...when I hit 50k I was feeling great. It wasn't until about mile 42 when I felt fatigue so bad I was afraid to close my eyes while running just to get two seconds of relaxation. I was afraid I'd fall asleep while running and I was doing a 10:30 pace. The 50k...you could run 8:30/mi pace and finish just fine. It could actually be a very long "long run" with aid stations so all the water/quesadilla/soda/candy/pretzels/chips/PB&J/Red Bull/electrolyte drink you want. Some even have anti chafe cream available if you need. If you are stupid like me and pick ultra marathons with lots of climbing at elevation you'll not enjoy your day. At least they gave me a reusable cup. They are much more environmentally conscious than road marathons where you get a paper cup then throw it wherever you want and volunteers get to clean up after you.
EDIT: 2
Damn...if only we would have known this 2 years ago. We could have kept racing.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/regular-exercise-may-protect-against-severe-covid-19/ar-AA10YUqZ?OCID=ansmsnnews11
Here's a good one: Regular exercise appears to significantly reduce your risk of getting COVID-19, a large international research review has found.
Question about possible race:
Hi everyone. There is a local 10k on 9/17 that I'd like to possibly run. But I'm not sure whether it would be wise to do so. What's most important to me this fall is breaking 3 hours for the marathon. The race on 9/17 would be at the end of week 6 of the training plan, on the same day the plan calls for an 18-20 mile long run.
The week before has an 8 mile tempo in place of a long run on Saturday, so I'm wondering if I could do the long run on week 5, then do this 10k in place of the tempo. So in some sense swapping the Saturdays of those two weeks. The training plan is 16 weeks, and the marathon is on 11/26. I'm thinking that far out from the marathon I might be able to afford such adjustments. But I'm not sure. Again breaking 3 hours matters to me more than anything else running wise right now. Thanks for any advice.
mmerkle- I think you’d be fine. And the race will be a good fitness test to see where you are.
Racing during your training plan is training. Don't think about it as if it's a detriment. I am racing a 10K this Saturday for that reason. I'm not going to PR, and the time will generally suck because it's still the summer, but it's better for my overall training than just going out for another long run this weekend.
Most coaches/plans have races built into the schedule. What plan are you using, or do you have a coach? Either way, I'd question why there aren't some built in. Either way, the swap you said makes sense.
Mmerkle-Jmac has answered but I'd agree.I try to race monthly if possible,I've not been able to do this and think I've list something this time because of it.
RP-Have you ever ran a timed event.There is a 6 hour track race I'm tempted to enter,I've done a track marathon before so understand the negatives.
5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39
Racing during your training plan is training. Don't think about it as if it's a detriment. I am racing a 10K this Saturday for that reason. I'm not going to PR, and the time will generally suck because it's still the summer, but it's better for my overall training than just going out for another long run this weekend. Most coaches/plans have races built into the schedule. What plan are you using, or do you have a coach? Either way, I'd question why there aren't some built in. Either way, the swap you said makes sense.
I'm using Sage Canaday's Boston Qualifier plan. Thanks for the input. I might just sign up for the race then and do a 2-4 mile cool down for more mileage.
Dave and Ian: Thanks for chiming in.
Cobra Commander Keen
Ian - Not that you asked for my input, BUT... I ran a 6 hour race a few years ago on a 2.5k asphalt loop around a park. It had one aid station that started immediately after the timing mat so I could grab whatever I needed/wanted as soon as I finished a lap, and there was a good deal of space in which people set up their own little areas with chairs, their own coolers, etc.
I think most people who were using those were in the concurrent 12 hour race - across 6 hours a person should be able to do most/all of the event off refilling water and grabbing the standard "ultra" foods off the aid station table(s) if needed plus maybe a few things you can carry with you. A chair might be nice, but for a race that "short" dropping to a walk and still logging distance would likely work better.
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
CK-Apologies,I've only read about RP and Cal doing ultras since I've been on here so didn't realise anyone else had.
The event I'm looking at has 6 and 12 hours,but I'm looking to do the 6 just off marathon training and see how it looks.How far did you run? I'm thinking 40m is an aim.
Mmerkle - do the race. It's way out from the marathon and honestly nothing helps your race fitness like racing. I find if I go more than a couple months without a race I lose a bit of sharpness and then need a rust-buster (like last Sunday) to actually get me properly back in race shape again. Recovery from a 10km is typically not too long either.
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
mmerkle do the race. Week 6 is a good time. I personally don’t race but it’s more to do with availability and time. I don’t have time to know when races are available. If you’re doing a 16 week plan you can get some up to date training paces and a boost of confidence. Also, just racing gets some rust knocked off like pre-race routines and checking watch screens or trying new things. mid also agree with replacing the tempo run. Go through the info others have posted for changing workouts to fit in a race.
is this a good race course? Out and back with some rolling hills or lots of miscellaneous turns? If it’s a good race course then go for it. If it’s going to be filled with interference from walkers and cyclists it might be worth noting the results might not EXACTLY indicate fitness and you’ll have to take an honest assessment of your effort.
ian never ran a timed event. Considered doing a local one, then it was canceled or changed and now no longer exists. The repitition might actually fit well with my personality. I’d obviously want to do the 12 hour one. Almost had a buddy convince me to do One Day in Auburn. It’s on a high school track. He wanted revenge on the 12 hour because he had a BAD day the first time he did it.
if you’re looking at a 6 hour I’d say you can totally do it on marathon training. Just go out slower than marathon pace. Look at past results and see if you can calculate what first place and 10th place ran as an average. You’ll have aid station stops which add 2-5 minutes so with 6 stops you’re adding a half hour to your run. Go do it and just see what it is like. It’s definitely mentally different than a fixed distance. Heck, even running a long run for time is weird to me and I could say a 13 mile run would be 1:45. If you told me to run for 1:45 on a Saturday I’d have some mental issues to work out.