2022 Advanced Marathoning Thread (Read 301 times)

Fishyone


    Thanks for all of the feedback regarding long runs. My history is lots of miles and not enough quality.  In the past I've run a 20 miler almost every weekend of an 18 week cycle but no quality within the long run (2:50-3 hours).  I seem to have a tough time figuring out MP in my long runs and tend to run the MP part too fast.  I can only manage 2 workouts a week so this cycle I was thinking tempo one week and some sort of repeats the next week with the second workout of the week being the long run.

     

    I'm thinking ACE is on to something with the 7B rule.  Members of the forum can vote to change Goals for other members... Anything below a 6 minute pace is a foreign language to me but........I'll vote with RP 58:30 for the 10 miler.

     

    Mikkey I don't leave the house without my music which must account for my mental weakness as well  I seem to recall many spirited debates on the forum about both music and treadmills contributing to weakness!

    5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

    Running Problem


    Problem Child

      Fishy By 2 workouts do you mean "long run plus two workouts" or "long run counts as a workout"? If it is 2 workouts plus long run then I support the tempo. If it is long run plus one workout then do what JD2Q or Hansons does and make a workout a marathon paced workout. I think Hansons and JD2Q both have a run such as 2E + 10 to 16M + 2E to get you a marathon paced workout with a warm up and cool down.

      Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

      VDOT 54.9

      5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

      JMac11


      Milkman

        Fishy - I have argued many times on this forum that running 20+ every weekend serves very little purpose for experienced marathoners, but there are varying views here. Daniels only has them once every 3 weeks! But I would argue at most to be doing them 2 out of every 3 weeks. Your limit at this point is not endurance. It is probably lactate threshold (which can be MP for 60 minutes).

         

        I also agree with RP's question: 2 workouts a week PLUS 20+ milers is a lot on your body

         

        Steve - we allow anyone over from the sub 1:30 forum to say whatever goal they want and congratulate them for all times run as to not upset the mojo. Your 3:20 shall stay . But seriously - first marathons are definitely tough to predict and I'd say a 3:20 looks reasonable unless you run a half or 10K in March that indicates way lower.

         

        Mikkey - welcome back, I feared we had lost you!

         

        Zebano - with more work at home, I have taken advantage of a few noon runs this winter. It makes me so much happier.

         

        RP - it is very hard to convince you of sandbagging given you always just blow out out of the water in your races compared to previous times. At some point I'm convinced your marathon pace will equal your 5K pace. If this was the sub 1:30 thread, you would be the king of sandbagging with those shorter times!

         

        Ace - winter races that aren't goal races and aren't near the end of the cycle are hard to predict. I think any time is good, but definitely sub 60 is a great sign you can go for sub 2:50 in April.

        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

        Next Race: Grandma's Marathon (6/18)

        CommanderKeen


        Aspiring Hobby Jogger

          DWave - I have a Landice L7 that would likely be able to drive legally were it a person.
          A big jump in speeds probably takes 10 seconds or so. I suppose not huge in the grand scheme of things, but compared to yours and certainly to what I can do myself on the roads it's lacking.


          JMac - The dark is completely peaceful, which is a big reason. There's nothing quite like running down the middle of a country road sans headlamp and hardly being able to see an artificial light within miles.
          Traffic doesn't factor into it much at all, as out in the rural areas I run traffic is practically non-existant no matter the time of day (and it's easier to see from farther away at night, too).


          Steve - I'd say that's a fair goal for a first marathon, but I also think you could do better (though pushing it obviously has risks). I think I ran just under 3:20 with a 1:28/29 HM result kinda early in my running career.


          I agree with Ace's proposed Rule 7B.

          5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

           

          Upcoming Races:

           

          Wurst Race Half - 10/8

          CIM - 12/4

          Marky_Mark_17


             

            Steve - we allow anyone over from the sub 1:30 forum to say whatever goal they want and congratulate them for all times run as to not upset the mojo. Your 3:20 shall stay .

             

            I think the approach on this thread is generally to have three or more different goals so that when you miss the A goal you can still feel good that you got a B or a C goal and everyone can congratulate you on that 

            3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

            10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

            * Net downhill course

            Last race: Southern Lakes HM, 7 May, 1:12:42 (May-22)

            Up next: Auckland 10km Road Champs, 20 August

            "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

            Fishyone


              RP 2 workouts with LR counting as a workout.  I love miles and will hopefully be hovering in the 80,90 range so most of it will be pretty slow.  At my advanced age I need a minimum of 2 days recovery.

              Fishy By 2 workouts do you mean "long run plus two workouts" or "long run counts as a workout"? If it is 2 workouts plus long run then I support the tempo. If it is long run plus one workout then do what JD2Q or Hansons does and make a workout a marathon paced workout. I think Hansons and JD2Q both have a run such as 2E + 10 to 16M + 2E to get you a marathon paced workout with a warm up and cool down.

              JMac- LOL I always thought my limit was speed.  One of my favorite movie quotes of all time "But first we gotta get speed....demon speed....speed's what we need...we need greasy fast speed!!"

              5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

              AceHarris


                 

                 Ace - winter races that aren't goal races and aren't near the end of the cycle are hard to predict. I think any time is good, but definitely sub 60 is a great sign you can go for sub 2:50 in April.

                 

                Jmac: That's a great point. I won't be tapering for the race. I'll be going into it with 45 miles over the 5 days prior to the race (that's a decent amount for me). I now feel free to sandbag this thing!

                Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)


                Elite Jogger

                   

                  I think the approach on this thread is generally to have three or more different goals so that when you miss the A goal you can still feel good that you got a B or a C goal and everyone can congratulate you on that 

                   

                  That used to be the case until Keen arrived.  We now embrace Z goal. 

                  5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                  JMac11


                  Milkman

                     

                    That used to be the case until Keen arrived.  We now embrace Z goal. 

                     

                    This has been added to the front page 

                     

                    Keen - that's interesting you can run where you are without a headlamp. I didn't think there would be streetlights and would just be pitch black. It's so funny to me that you need to be in the dark for a peaceful moment, when just the thought of running where you run any time of day is peaceful to me.

                     

                    Fishy - I think most of us here follow the 2 workouts a week rule, with LR as a workout, so you'll fit right in!

                    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                     

                    Next Race: Grandma's Marathon (6/18)

                    Running Problem


                    Problem Child

                       

                       

                      RP - it is very hard to convince you of sandbagging given you always just blow out out of the water in your races compared to previous times. At some point I'm convinced your marathon pace will equal your 5K pace. If this was the sub 1:30 thread, you would be the king of sandbagging with those shorter times!

                       

                       

                      There is some potential here. I'd be really impressed if I could run a 6:20/mi paced marathon and it would end up being the one thing in life I was good at. I'd have very few people to share it with, and I'm confident slower runners would be intimidated by me but at the end of the day my own view of myself is all I'm concerned with being important. Also, I don't follow rules very often.

                       

                      As for sandbagging shorter races I'll say this. Jack of all trades. Master of none. Instead of being great at one thing (marathons) I could be good at a bunch of things (5k, 1500, 13.1, 12k, steeplechase, etc.).

                       

                      Fishy if a long run counts as a workout try a 10-14 mile marathon paced run with a warm up and a cool down. If you're doing 14 miles with a 2 mile warm up and cool down you're at 18 miles. There is also the lovely 4 mile warm up with 4x (2T with 2 min recovery jog) JMac loves to do. Another doosey would possibly be 8M+1T+4M+1T+1M with a 4 mile warm up. The JD2Q training plan might be perfect for you wanting to get so many miles, and only two quality workouts a week. Literally perfect.

                       

                      me:

                      just having a bad day. It's mostly work related and I'm just reminding myself there is no pleasing people, and there is no point trying to please people because they aren't ever pleased. Amazingly being an asshole when expected to be an asshole, but also expected to NOT be an asshole, is where I have lived my life for probably the better part of 20 years. I just now realized people telling ME to change and making ME the problem is a constant. I need to change, not them or their opinion of me. It's depressing me today after making me mad earlier to a point of saying I'm just going to do what other people do. Blame everyone who isn't me and say they need to change. Looking forward to having a job in 4 months.

                      Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                      VDOT 54.9

                      5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                      CommanderKeen


                      Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                         

                        That used to be the case until Keen arrived.  We now embrace Z goal. 

                         

                        Damn. That's a good one.

                         

                         

                         

                         

                        JMac - It is very dark without a headlamp, especially with no illumination from the moon. It's kind of like "stay on this patch of black that's not quite as dark as the black on either side". When I first tried running without the headlamp turned on (I always have it, but rarely use it) it was both really cool and a bit unsettling to not be able to see the road and know exactly when my foot would land. That uneasiness is long gone now (the cool factor is still there), and I think it has really helped with proprioception.

                        5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                         

                        Upcoming Races:

                         

                        Wurst Race Half - 10/8

                        CIM - 12/4

                        Fishyone


                           

                           

                          Fishy if a long run counts as a workout try a 10-14 mile marathon paced run with a warm up and a cool down. If you're doing 14 miles with a 2 mile warm up and cool down you're at 18 miles. There is also the lovely 4 mile warm up with 4x (2T with 2 min recovery jog) JMac loves to do. Another doosey would possibly be 8M+1T+4M+1T+1M with a 4 mile warm up. The JD2Q training plan might be perfect for you wanting to get so many miles, and only two quality workouts a week. Literally perfect.

                          RP- Thanks for the feedback.  Just ordered JD's book never tried his plans before because the runs seemed too complicated but maybe that's what I need.  Previous I've loosely followed pfitz. hope your day improves.

                          5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 40:13 (2014), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                          JMac11


                          Milkman

                            RP- Thanks for the feedback.  Just ordered JD's book never tried his plans before because the runs seemed too complicated but maybe that's what I need.  Previous I've loosely followed pfitz. hope your day improves.

                             

                            I've followed his plan for my last 4 marathons (should have been 5 this past fall!). I agree with RP that you may love his plans with what you want. He just gives you the two workouts to do and you structure the rest of the week as you see fit, which I love. It's a great plan for someone who has run a few marathons and wants to try something new and doesn't need a day by day plan.

                             

                            They sound complicated, like 8E + 4x2T + 2E. But that's just saying 8 mile warmup, 4x2 mile repeats, 2 mile cooldown. You may read the book and hate it and go back to Pfitz, but as usual with coaches, it's great to read a few different to see what fits your needs!

                             

                            Keen - I would be terrified of stepping in a pothole or something if it was a new moon. You are a brave man!

                             

                            RP - I do wonder if training for a good half marathon would make you an even better marathon runner. I definitely think you're suited for the marathon, but an intense half cycle may make you an even better full runner.

                            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: Grandma's Marathon (6/18)

                            CommanderKeen


                            Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                              JMac - Half of the roads on which I run are dirt/gravel, so potholes aren't an issue at all. There are some sketchy portions of paved roads, but I know exactly where those are and can still run around them in the dark or turn on the headlamp if I want. I especially use it after rain/snow which helps cause more potholes.


                              Fishy - JD workouts do look confusing at first due to the abbreviations, but once you crack that it's super-simple.

                               

                              5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                               

                              Upcoming Races:

                               

                              Wurst Race Half - 10/8

                              CIM - 12/4

                              SteveChCh


                              Hot Weather Complainer

                                 

                                I’m sure you’ve read some of the scare stories with debut marathons...but you’ve got nothing to be scared of as you are so prepared and disciplined. My feeling is that you’ll run a negative split marathon and then go for it properly at a later date! (I hope so)

                                 

                                Thanks Mikkey - 12 weeks to go and it's looking a bit daunting but I've got a good base.  I hope you're right about the negative split, that would definitely make me want to go again and go for it.  I think if I stretched my goal this time round I could get it, but could also end in tears.

                                Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                                Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                                Race plan:  Wellington Half Marathon June 19, 2022 (likely marathon tempo session). Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022